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#1
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Measuring the quality of snow
I'm a groomer - I (almost daily) drag a Tidd-Tech "Tenderizer" and track
setter around a nature preserve in upper NY state, grooming about 4 miles of trails (free to the public). I'm trying to get "scientific" about grooming. I am a traditional diagonal x-c skier when I have the chance, and I know after I groom sometimes the snow just "feels good", feels fast (icy), feels slow (mushy), or worst of all, feels like dirt in the spring! But how can you quantitatively measure snow "feel"? I have temperature probes, fiberglass rulers, a snow density gauge (percent water by weight). So I can do some measurements. My thought is I might create some guidelines for grooming; for example, "If the trail density is XX% and no new snow is forecast, then groom/don't groom." Guidelines must be related to easily available data like snow temp, air temp, forecast, snow density, depths, etc. Can anyone steer me towards some web sites that focus on the measurment of snow quality? A lot of snow density testing seems to be geared towards avalanche forecasting, which is not a problem in my flat terrain! Just trying to do a better job for you guys... The groomer |
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#2
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Measuring the quality of snow
Maybe you could get a message to Greg Fangel who posts to this news group. I
think he knows of sources to help you. Also in a recent Silent Sports magazine there was an article about grooming in low snow conditions. Don't remember the details, but my sense was there is a lot of intuition based on experience. Also I think there are web sites with grooming guidelines. All I know is, if I was a groomer I'd be screwing up a lot because I'd do things different than the groomers that do a great job. Are you able to keep some trails ungroomed and closed if there is a serious thaw predicted and no new snow after that? After the freeze you can groom them and mine the powder underneath the crust. The far reaching thinking groomers around here have done this once in a while. BTW, where do you groom? Could you post your findings? It would be interesting to follow a discussion among groomers. Gary Jacobson Rosendale, NY "Pieter Litchfield" wrote in message ... I'm a groomer - I (almost daily) drag a Tidd-Tech "Tenderizer" and track setter around a nature preserve in upper NY state, grooming about 4 miles of trails (free to the public). I'm trying to get "scientific" about grooming. I am a traditional diagonal x-c skier when I have the chance, and I know after I groom sometimes the snow just "feels good", feels fast (icy), feels slow (mushy), or worst of all, feels like dirt in the spring! But how can you quantitatively measure snow "feel"? I have temperature probes, fiberglass rulers, a snow density gauge (percent water by weight). So I can do some measurements. My thought is I might create some guidelines for grooming; for example, "If the trail density is XX% and no new snow is forecast, then groom/don't groom." Guidelines must be related to easily available data like snow temp, air temp, forecast, snow density, depths, etc. Can anyone steer me towards some web sites that focus on the measurment of snow quality? A lot of snow density testing seems to be geared towards avalanche forecasting, which is not a problem in my flat terrain! Just trying to do a better job for you guys... The groomer |
#3
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Measuring the quality of snow
Gary:
I'll be happy to share whatever I find, and thanks for the contact name. The idea of closing trails when weather is expected to warm is interesting. The only advice I've received so far, is that all snow should be compacted. But that suggestion is exactly the kind of guideline I'd like to be able to use, especially when based on measurements of environmental variables like temperatrues and snow density. In addition, since I am grooming on a municipal/state/TNC holding, its about impossible to stop public access. I had a hard enought time just getting permission to put up signs politely requesting dog walkers not to boot walk groomed trails in warm weather - all are requested (but not required) to use snowshoes or skis. With my groomer, I can't do much with those 6 inch deep boot holes after they freeze. I have found a couple of sources for grooming info. One is "Cross Country Canada" ( http://canada.x-c.com/splash2e.html ) which has both a book and video on grooming, and another is Tidd-Tech manufacturing (http://www.tiddtech.com/), the same people who make my groomer. I don't know how much "science" they put into their how-to publications, however. I have materials on the way from both sources. I am located near Saratoga Springs - grooming a few miles in Wilton NY "Gary Jacobson" wrote in message ... Maybe you could get a message to Greg Fangel who posts to this news group. I think he knows of sources to help you. Also in a recent Silent Sports magazine there was an article about grooming in low snow conditions. Don't remember the details, but my sense was there is a lot of intuition based on experience. Also I think there are web sites with grooming guidelines. All I know is, if I was a groomer I'd be screwing up a lot because I'd do things different than the groomers that do a great job. Are you able to keep some trails ungroomed and closed if there is a serious thaw predicted and no new snow after that? After the freeze you can groom them and mine the powder underneath the crust. The far reaching thinking groomers around here have done this once in a while. BTW, where do you groom? Could you post your findings? It would be interesting to follow a discussion among groomers. Gary Jacobson Rosendale, NY "Pieter Litchfield" wrote in message ... I'm a groomer - I (almost daily) drag a Tidd-Tech "Tenderizer" and track setter around a nature preserve in upper NY state, grooming about 4 miles of trails (free to the public). I'm trying to get "scientific" about grooming. I am a traditional diagonal x-c skier when I have the chance, and I know after I groom sometimes the snow just "feels good", feels fast (icy), feels slow (mushy), or worst of all, feels like dirt in the spring! But how can you quantitatively measure snow "feel"? I have temperature probes, fiberglass rulers, a snow density gauge (percent water by weight). So I can do some measurements. My thought is I might create some guidelines for grooming; for example, "If the trail density is XX% and no new snow is forecast, then groom/don't groom." Guidelines must be related to easily available data like snow temp, air temp, forecast, snow density, depths, etc. Can anyone steer me towards some web sites that focus on the measurment of snow quality? A lot of snow density testing seems to be geared towards avalanche forecasting, which is not a problem in my flat terrain! Just trying to do a better job for you guys... The groomer |
#4
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Measuring the quality of snow
"Pieter Litchfield" wrote
I'll be happy to share whatever I find, and thanks for the contact name. snip Great, I'd also be interested to hear your findings ... Google found a few pages that aren't exactly what you're looking for in terms of snow-conditions guidelines, but may give you some general tips you hadn't thought of before if you haven't been "professionally" trained in grooming: http://members.shaw.ca/djlassmann4/t...ndards/4-4.htm http://home.earthlink.net/~ssnsa/GrmGuide%2003-04.pdf (as html: http://tinyurl.com/2afuv) Hope these can help some. -Brendon |
#5
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Measuring the quality of snow
Thanks - I have seen these before, and in fact have a fairly extensive list
of sites that relate to both x-c grooming and overall multi-use trail design and construction. I am looking forward to the information coming from Tidd-Tech and the Canadian x-c association on general grooming. And I think for many groomers, grooming "by feel" is perfectly fine. I'm just curious if there is a way to relate how you groom directly to snow and weather. For example, I have seen sites that suggest grooming every day or every other day. Sometimes I do depending on snowfall and other conditions. But for a volunteer organization, grooming every day can drain the manpower pool fast, so it would be nice to have a system to minimize the manhours required for best results. "Brendon M. Troy" wrote in message ... "Pieter Litchfield" wrote I'll be happy to share whatever I find, and thanks for the contact name. snip Great, I'd also be interested to hear your findings ... Google found a few pages that aren't exactly what you're looking for in terms of snow-conditions guidelines, but may give you some general tips you hadn't thought of before if you haven't been "professionally" trained in grooming: http://members.shaw.ca/djlassmann4/t...ndards/4-4.htm http://home.earthlink.net/~ssnsa/GrmGuide%2003-04.pdf (as html: http://tinyurl.com/2afuv) Hope these can help some. -Brendon |
#6
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Grooming: Measuring the quality of snow
One of the local parks had a budget crunch last year, and the guy that was
doing some of the grooming had some posts on the local xc board with some of the problems of having the county (untrained) guys doing it. Here are some snippets from my old mail stuff: ---------------- Grooming is more than just taking a piece of equipment around a trail. It requires knowledge of various pieces of equipmet, when to use them, as well as how to use them. What speeds to use them at. What snow conditions to use them for. What temperatures and weather trends are taking place and much much more as well as simply knowing the complete trail system. NO ONE currently working for the Parks department has this experience. Although they will lead you to believe they are "on top of things." ------------------ Since late Nov. or maybe the first week of Dec. the snow groomer has not been on any of these trails beyond(south) the Water tower trail. By not grooming the snow/working it on a timely basis there is now no base established for the grooming machine to easily navigate the entire trail system. They have stated, "when they replaced the tracks on the groomer a few years ago they went without placing metal studs in them which now prevents them from getting up most of the more advanced terrain hills." Medal studs would not make any differance. They would not come in contact with anything that is solid. The studs are only for black ice or boiler plate. I used it for nearly 3 years just the way it is. Not being able to get up the hills is due to, too much unpacked, airy, un-bonded snow that needed to be packed shortly after if fell to earth, not weeks later. Thus, just as we experience with classical waxing when new snow falls into set tracks, wax tends to slip due to "snow sheer." This same thing except on a much larger scale is what is now preventing them from getting up hills. Too much unpacked snow under the machine so when the machine trys to "drive" it will rip, or dig/spin/tear up all the unpacked snow in massive sheets, down to the grass. What a shame. ------------ Your weekly lesson about GROOMING SKI TRAILS and the current mess. The conditions at Mendon as stated below are now on Jan. 12th "deplorable" due to inappropriate grooming over the past several weeks. Since the snow began falling several weeks ago and only limitted grooming was being done by inexperienced personnal it was simply a matter of time until the "ice" hit the fan. Grooming requires more than just taking a heavy piece of equipment and packing snow. The first step is to develop a base. That should have been done in early December. Easily done this year. Then each day the snow conditions on the trails along with the skier traffic, temperatures, upcoming events and forecast need to be evaluated. With several inches of new snow, rolling may be what is needed as well as trail leveling. Without trail leveling you get the "fawn hill" look which was the narrow saucer like shape down the center of the trail coming down from the water tower trail. Which even for snow-plowers was difficult as it was so narrow. The entire trail width was not usable even though good snow covered all of it. Then last week we saw temperatures go above 32 degrees for approx 24-32 hours. During that same time heavy equipment was still being used to pack the already "packed too hard" North Meadow Trails. When you go on warm snow with heavy equipment you simply force the water out of it and it comes to the surface. Surprise surprise. But it looked so good from the road............... You could feel the hardness of the trail last week (when you skied on it) before it ever got warm. It felt harder than the actual road at Harriet when it has very little snow. This was an "alarm" or "warning signal." Add some more packing and then to top it off take the really heavy (half a ton or more) track setter to set tracks on warm wet snow. Now drop the temps to 32 or below and your ski trail is no longer skiable. It will be a combination of Ben and Jerry's "chunky monky" and ice. Except, Ben and Jerry's is enjoyable when it appears in a dish or in a cone but not under your skis, head, face whatever. All of this was easily preventable and great skiing should be what we are all writting about. ----------- Grooming, is like surgery which requires a Doctor. It's not just a matter of taking the machine and driving it over the top of the snow. It requires the "snow to be worked". Packed, unpacked, allowed to dry, groomed so as to catch blowing snows, using different pieces of equipment and different weights and yes the upcoming warm temps will require a PHD. The past few days weather, and temperatures, as well as the next several days weather and temperatures as well as the time of day temperatures and humidity will determine "where and when the incision should be made". Better call 9-1-1 ----- Hope this is helpful; I learned from it that it is tricky business! Note; this year that park seems to be in much better shape! gr "Pieter Litchfield" wrote in message ... I'm a groomer - I (almost daily) drag a Tidd-Tech "Tenderizer" and track setter around a nature preserve in upper NY state, grooming about 4 miles of trails (free to the public). I'm trying to get "scientific" about grooming. I am a traditional diagonal x-c skier when I have the chance, and I know after I groom sometimes the snow just "feels good", feels fast (icy), feels slow (mushy), or worst of all, feels like dirt in the spring! But how can you quantitatively measure snow "feel"? I have temperature probes, fiberglass rulers, a snow density gauge (percent water by weight). So I can do some measurements. My thought is I might create some guidelines for grooming; for example, "If the trail density is XX% and no new snow is forecast, then groom/don't groom." Guidelines must be related to easily available data like snow temp, air temp, forecast, snow density, depths, etc. Can anyone steer me towards some web sites that focus on the measurment of snow quality? A lot of snow density testing seems to be geared towards avalanche forecasting, which is not a problem in my flat terrain! Just trying to do a better job for you guys... The groomer |
#7
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Measuring the quality of snow
A lot of grooming is more art than science. With fresh, powder snow falling
every day you may have to groom just about every day, and even then the snow may have to be worked several times before it compacts enough to make a solid track. On older or thinner snow you will not want to groom any more than absolutely necessary to provide decent skiing because the snow will set up too hard or wear through in some corners or hills. In freeze/thaw conditions, the snow may become so wet during the day that it just balls up on the machine if you try to groom during the day. At night it may then freeze so hard you can't do much effective work. That only leaves a narrow window in the evening and early morning when grooming is possible. (Who said groomers are entitled to a good nights sleep.) Our club is in western Canada and the grooming is quite different from the east or even Alberta. You have to work out what works best in your local conditions. Scott Elliot http://www3.telus.net/selliot/ |
#8
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Measuring the quality of snow
--0-1798994772-1074633367=:54205
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Pieter- One measurement you might be able to borrow from the avalanche forecasting folks is a concept known as "hand-hardness" Density (weight per volume of snow- usually trying to collect it without packing it) will tell you part of the "feel" of the snow, but hand-hardness relates to how cohesive it is. The scale ranges from "fist" to "knife". "Fist" hardness means that you can stick your fist into the snow. An example of this would be well rotted depth hoar or "sugar snow", such as occurs when a thin snow layer sits under cold clear skies for a week or two. A well-sintered snow pack (packed either mechanically or naturally) typically needs a knife blade to punch through. When I was an undergraduate, I tried to design a study (for a snow science class) that related density and hand-hardness measurements in some sort of consistent, "scientific" relationship, but failed, because there are quite a few variables involved. So, hand-hardness is just an addition to all those other tools and observations you are already using to get a handle on the science - and art- of grooming. Good luck, and hope this is useful info. If you come up with something, I'd like to hear about it! Chris Cline SLC, UT Pieter Litchfield wrote: I'm a groomer - I (almost daily) drag a Tidd-Tech "Tenderizer" and track setter around a nature preserve in upper NY state, grooming about 4 miles of trails (free to the public). I'm trying to get "scientific" about grooming. I am a traditional diagonal x-c skier when I have the chance, and I know after I groom sometimes the snow just "feels good", feels fast (icy), feels slow (mushy), or worst of all, feels like dirt in the spring! But how can you quantitatively measure snow "feel"? I have temperature probes, fiberglass rulers, a snow density gauge (percent water by weight). So I can do some measurements. My thought is I might create some guidelines for grooming; for example, "If the trail density is XX% and no new snow is forecast, then groom/don't groom." Guidelines must be related to easily available data like snow temp, air temp, forecast, snow density, depths, etc. Can anyone steer me towards some web sites that focus on the measurment of snow quality? A lot of snow density testing seems to be geared towards avalanche forecasting, which is not a problem in my flat terrain! Just trying to do a better job for you guys... The groomer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes --0-1798994772-1074633367=:54205 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii DIVHi Pieter-/DIV DIVOne measurement you might be able to borrow from the avalanche forecasting folks is a concept known as "hand-hardness" Density (weight per volume of snow- usually trying to collect it without packing it) will tell you part of the "feel" of the snow, but hand-hardness relates to how cohesive it is./DIV DIV /DIV DIVThe scale ranges from "fist" to "knife". "Fist" hardness means that you can stick your fist into the snow. An example of this would be well rotted depth hoar or "sugar snow", such as occurs when a thin snow layer sits under cold clear skies for a week or two. A well-sintered snow pack (packed either mechanically or naturally) typically needs a knife blade to punch through./DIV DIV /DIV DIVWhen I was an undergraduate, I tried to design a study (for a snow science class) that related density and hand-hardness measurements in some sort of consistent, "scientific" relationship, but failed, because there are quite a few variables involved. So, hand-hardness is just an addition to all those other tools and observations you are already using to get a handle on the science - and art- of grooming./DIV DIV /DIV DIVGood luck, and hope this is useful info. If you come up with something, I'd like to hear about it!/DIV DIV /DIV DIVChris Cline/DIV DIVSLC, UTBRBRBIPieter Litchfield >/I/B wrote:/DIV BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"I'm a groomer - I (almost daily) drag a Tidd-Tech "Tenderizer" and trackBRsetter around a nature preserve in upper NY state, grooming about 4 miles ofBRtrails (free to the public).BRBRI'm trying to get "scientific" about grooming. I am a traditional diagonalBRx-c skier when I have the chance, and I know after I groom sometimes theBRsnow just "feels good", feels fast (icy), feels slow (mushy), or worst ofBRall, feels like dirt in the spring!BRBRBut how can you quantitatively measure snow "feel"? I have temperatureBRprobes, fiberglass rulers, a snow density gauge (percent water by weight).BRSo I can do some measurements. My thought is I might create some guidelinesBRfor grooming; for example, "If the trail density is XX% and no new snow isBRforecast, then groom/don't groom." Guidelines must be related to easilyBRavailable data like snow temp, air tem! p, forecast, snow density, depths,BRetc.BRBRCan anyone steer me towards some web sites that focus on the measurment ofBRsnow quality? A lot of snow density testing seems to be geared towardsBRavalanche forecasting, which is not a problem in my flat terrain!BRBRJust trying to do a better job for you guys...BRBRThe groomerBRBRBRBRBRBR/BLOCKQUOTEphr SIZE=1 Do you Yahoo!?br Yahoo! Hotjobs: a href="http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/hotjobs/mail_footer_email/evt=21482/*http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus"Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes/a --0-1798994772-1074633367=:54205-- |
#9
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Measuring the quality of snow
Thanks for the clues - if I ever figure out how the variables fit together,
I'll be happy to share. It appears there is some interest in this. Many years ago (before there were plastic fish scales, skis were made of wood and sheep were nervous), my girlfriend's father, a nationally known x-c skiier, actually allowed me to see his personally compiled competition waxing chart, but only after I swore that I would never reveal anything on it to anyone else. It was complex, and the best part was that only he "felt" the environmental relationships that lead to the right cell (wax selection) in his charts. So it was completely useless to me or anyone else. I don't expect I will "solve" the environmental variables relating to grooming. But it would be nice to know what they are. "Chris Cline" wrote in message o.com... --0-1798994772-1074633367=:54205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Pieter- One measurement you might be able to borrow from the avalanche forecasting folks is a concept known as "hand-hardness" Density (weight per volume of snow- usually trying to collect it without packing it) will tell you part of the "feel" of the snow, but hand-hardness relates to how cohesive it is. The scale ranges from "fist" to "knife". "Fist" hardness means that you can stick your fist into the snow. An example of this would be well rotted depth hoar or "sugar snow", such as occurs when a thin snow layer sits under cold clear skies for a week or two. A well-sintered snow pack (packed either mechanically or naturally) typically needs a knife blade to punch through. When I was an undergraduate, I tried to design a study (for a snow science class) that related density and hand-hardness measurements in some sort of consistent, "scientific" relationship, but failed, because there are quite a few variables involved. So, hand-hardness is just an addition to all those other tools and observations you are already using to get a handle on the science - and art- of grooming. Good luck, and hope this is useful info. If you come up with something, I'd like to hear about it! Chris Cline SLC, UT Pieter Litchfield wrote: I'm a groomer - I (almost daily) drag a Tidd-Tech "Tenderizer" and track setter around a nature preserve in upper NY state, grooming about 4 miles of trails (free to the public). I'm trying to get "scientific" about grooming. I am a traditional diagonal x-c skier when I have the chance, and I know after I groom sometimes the snow just "feels good", feels fast (icy), feels slow (mushy), or worst of all, feels like dirt in the spring! But how can you quantitatively measure snow "feel"? I have temperature probes, fiberglass rulers, a snow density gauge (percent water by weight). So I can do some measurements. My thought is I might create some guidelines for grooming; for example, "If the trail density is XX% and no new snow is forecast, then groom/don't groom." Guidelines must be related to easily available data like snow temp, air temp, forecast, snow density, depths, etc. Can anyone steer me towards some web sites that focus on the measurment of snow quality? A lot of snow density testing seems to be geared towards avalanche forecasting, which is not a problem in my flat terrain! Just trying to do a better job for you guys... The groomer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes --0-1798994772-1074633367=:54205 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii DIVHi Pieter-/DIV DIVOne measurement you might be able to borrow from the avalanche forecasting folks is a concept known as "hand-hardness" Density (weight per volume of snow- usually trying to collect it without packing it) will tell you part of the "feel" of the snow, but hand-hardness relates to how cohesive it is./DIV DIV /DIV DIVThe scale ranges from "fist" to "knife". "Fist" hardness means that you can stick your fist into the snow. An example of this would be well rotted depth hoar or "sugar snow", such as occurs when a thin snow layer sits under cold clear skies for a week or two. A well-sintered snow pack (packed either mechanically or naturally) typically needs a knife blade to punch through./DIV DIV /DIV DIVWhen I was an undergraduate, I tried to design a study (for a snow science class) that related density and hand-hardness measurements in some sort of consistent, "scientific" relationship, but failed, because there are quite a few variables involved. So, hand-hardness is just an addition to all those other tools and observations you are already using to get a handle on the science - and art- of grooming./DIV DIV /DIV DIVGood luck, and hope this is useful info. If you come up with something, I'd like to hear about it!/DIV DIV /DIV DIVChris Cline/DIV DIVSLC, UTBRBRBIPieter Litchfield >/I/B wrote:/DIV BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"I'm a groomer - I (almost daily) drag a Tidd-Tech "Tenderizer" and trackBRsetter around a nature preserve in upper NY state, grooming about 4 miles ofBRtrails (free to the public).BRBRI'm trying to get "scientific" about grooming. I am a traditional diagonalBRx-c skier when I have the chance, and I know after I groom sometimes theBRsnow just "feels good", feels fast (icy), feels slow (mushy), or worst ofBRall, feels like dirt in the spring!BRBRBut how can you quantitatively measure snow "feel"? I have temperatureBRprobes, fiberglass rulers, a snow density gauge (percent water by weight).BRSo I can do some measurements. My thought is I might create some guidelinesBRfor grooming; for example, "If the trail density is XX% and no new snow isBRforecast, then groom/don't groom." Guidelines must be related to easilyBRavailable data like snow temp, air tem! p, forecast, snow density, depths,BRetc.BRBRCan anyone steer me towards some web sites that focus on the measurment ofBRsnow quality? A lot of snow density testing seems to be geared towardsBRavalanche forecasting, which is not a problem in my flat terrain!BRBRJust trying to do a better job for you guys...BRBRThe groomerBRBRBRBRBRBR/BLOCKQUOTEphr SIZE=1 Do you Yahoo!?br Yahoo! Hotjobs: a href="http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/hotjobs/mail_footer_email/ evt=21482/*http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus"Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes/a --0-1798994772-1074633367=:54205-- |
#10
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Measuring the quality of snow
Dont you wish grooming was as easy as this?
http://kuvat.kpo.fi/kuva.jpg Its the ski tunnel at Vuokatti Finland and at 5.35pm today their time the groomer was in picture. Mike |
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