Going off trail

Ken Roberts wrote:
Terje Mathisen wrote
Ken Roberts wrote:
I thought I remembered you had crossed the Hardangervedda skiing classic
on your skating skis?
Actually, they might have been Fischer classic skis, about 205 cm long
(and I'm just 171).

I was remembering you once said you chose skating skis for the
Hardangervedda because their sidecut made it easier for controlling turns on
moderate downhill sections.

The first years was on Fisher skates, more recently on Madshus classic.

(I'm thinking all the Original Poster really needs to do is just purchase
some "kicker skins" for his skating skis.)

Good idea.

Many of the other skiers have been on light touring skis with NNN BC, so
I've dragged significantly less weight along on each foot.

Same reason I decided not to go for NNN BC (or the Salomon BC): When I
carefully totaled up the extra weight, it just didn't seem worth it. Instead
I've done some long committing tours (and lots of short ones) on my track
Combi boots with SNS bindings.

I don't own anything at all between xc competition skis and a snowboard.
:-)

You're making it tough for us to find something to "disagree" about.

Good!

Terje

Ken




--
-
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

Am Mittwoch, den 08.11.2006, 03:55 +0000 schrieb Ken Roberts:

I've noticed that none of my ski partners who _lives_ near the Alps has ever
done the "haute route" -- or expressed any interest in trying it. And now
that I've gotten to know all the other nearby mountain groups in the Alpes
du Nord, I have no interest in ever doing it again. Selected parts every few
years with visiting friends, but not the whole thing.

I agree with that. The Haute Route is a kind of autoroute through the
alps. I don't like it. Last year i made the traverse of Corsica with
skis (we were a group of 4, 3 of them free heel!).

Hearing of lots of telemarkers on the "haute route" fits with my view of who
is buying most of the telemark bindings nowadays: folks who do most their
ski days lift-served, and don't have much depth of experience with serious
touring. Fits with my own choices on the "haute route": I chose the route
because I didn't know what else was available, and I did it on light
telemark boots + bindings becuase I didn't know how superior Alpine Touring
gear was.

Be correct: The Haute Route is not lift served, save the Verbier
part ... It's so much frequented because it became famous. But there are
also other very frequented tours (Bella Lui e.g or Dents de Morcles) and
i'd never say, those doing this tours are people who skis lift served
mainly.

There is also a security aspect: in doubtful conditions a frequented
parcours is better than a lonesome one.

At least 80% of the people I know who ski most of their days in real
backcountry, and few or no days lift-served -- have abandoned their telemark
skis after many years of experience, and purchased Alpine Touring set-ups.

That YOU prefer alpine randonnee equipment, that's obvious. But don't
tell me you're SKIING with a Scarpa F1 and a small alpiniracer like ski
(as the extremely light Trab or Dynafit skis). Those things are good for
RUNNING uphill. Downhill they don't ski, they just come down as we say
"a raspa" (here you have a foto of that:
http://www.discoveryalps.it/foto/1369.jpg ).

To have a skiable equipment, at least in the alps, you would have to
have a way way heavvier equipment. I'd say the least is something like
Scarpa Laser and a 3kg per pair ski.

But 'm not sure, if you're generally right. I'm just wondering, why all
the major producers of tele-equipment this year or the last year brought
to the market new, free-pivot, telebindings. Boh? I'd suspect, they're
are studying the market ...

Tele or alpine, that is, i think Booker said it ones, not about
effectiveness, but it's about style.

As for me, i can say i changed after 50 years of alpine ski (all: races,
lift served, obviously, big tours, extreme - what was called such 30
years ago :-) ) i changed to teleskiing to save my knees (following the
suggestion of a friend of mine, an alpine guide from Andermatt). And
what i can say is: it saved my skiing.

Certainly, i'm not at the fixed heel level, especially in conditions
where it is forbidden to fall with tele i'm not feeling as confident as
with fixed heel. But: an S4 you can always do, and with decent
conditions even more difficult. And practically, i'm seeing an inverse
tendency here in Switzerland.

May be a reason for your point of view is, that the americans 20 years
ago didn't know other backcountry and ski touring than telemark. Now,
they see the AT things and the new "babe" is always the most interesting
one, isn't it? :-)

Cheers,

Uli

Am Dienstag, den 07.11.2006, 23:59 +0100 schrieb Ulrich Hausmann:

I'd say the Transjurassien (not the race but the parcours) - or some
parts of it - would be really nice with Dynafit and Scarpa F1. My god,
if you like it you can do it, but ...

I should have said: ... would *NOT* be really nice ...

Cheers,

Uli

Ulrich Hausmann wrote:
Am Dienstag, den 07.11.2006, 09:03 +0000 schrieb Peter Clinch:

Light for a plastic telemark boot, certainly, but there are no genuinely
light plastic telemark boots, only less heavy ones.

My Scarpa T2X weighs less than my leather boot (Andrews Expedition
Laces) ...

But a T2X weighs a damn site more than, say, an Alpina 1500 BC. That
you can get really heavy leathers doesn't mean you can get incredibly
light plastics.

I tour in original T3s (still one of the lighter plastics made so far),
but things like they fit me better than leathers available in the UK and
I want some more downhill control to make up for lack of talent are the
reasons, /not/ because they're incredibly light.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Am Mittwoch, den 08.11.2006, 08:36 +0000 schrieb Peter Clinch:

But a T2X weighs a damn site more than, say, an Alpina 1500 BC. That
you can get really heavy leathers doesn't mean you can get incredibly
light plastics.

Oh, i do not doubt :-) But it's always a personal approach. Me, with the
small skis and the leather boots i'd like to be able to eventually
(early in the winter, with limited snow coverage etc) to do as well
alpine like ski touring (i' ve small skins as well, but i do not like
the kicker skins, for me they didn't work so well). So, it's a good
compromise

I tour in original T3s (still one of the lighter plastics made so far),
but things like they fit me better than leathers available in the UK and
I want some more downhill control to make up for lack of talent are the
reasons, /not/ because they're incredibly light.

At a certain level of skiing (tele) and ski (fatness) you *NEED* a given
minimum of boot to be able to stear and to control them. I'm trying
always to have, let's say, the *MINIMAL* boot (so i "downgraded" from
Scarpa T1 to Scarpa T2X, which is lighter about 1 kg and, so is my
feeling, even has stronger torsional resistence).

I like 3-pin (NN 75) because it's simple and universal. And even a good
compromise for marching (not as good as free pivot bidings but good -
for strong tours with difficult downhills i attach the Voile hardwire
cartridges for the downhill part).

Cheers,

Uli

Booker C. Bense
Here's a web page that
discusses the various options and choices for skis that are
called "Backcountry Skis" at least in the USA.

http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/Dirt...r/bc-skis.html

If you just want to get out in the woods, take a serious look at
snowshoes.

Ah, but this just reflects the fact that decent skis are largely
unknown of in America!

Snowshoes are specialized gear that can in no way compete with
proper skis in overall mobility or utility in the woods (never
mind fun).

No, no, I'm not entirely serious . This is just my yearly
effort to point out that (modern) forest/utility/bc/military
skis suited for off-track soft-snow conditions actually do exist.
Just not in the US, for some curious reason.

Kurt Knisely wrote
Ken Roberts wrote
Backcountry telemarking is over. Except in Norway.
And Utah and Colorado and Idaho and Montana...

I'll gladly defer to others for Colorado, Idaho, etc.

Ski partners living in Utah are my main source of examples of telemarkers
switching to AT.

There's way more Alpine Touring gear being sold in Salt Lake City shops
nowadays than could be found 20 years ago. (That's where I bought my Scarpa
F1 boots)

A bit surprising, since the snow and terrain in the central Wasatch are
pretty "friendly" for telemarking. Probably explains why there's so many
"die-hards" still there.

And having a job in Salt Lake is a real easy way to get into enjoying lots
of lift-served "powder mornings" -- and I'm pretty convinced that
lift-served skiing is a key driver of telemarking.

Ken

Ulrich Hausmann wrote
Be correct: The Haute Route is not lift served,
save the Verbier part

No, not only the Verbier part.
Unless you think most of the telemarkers are putting their skis on by the
Grands Montets parking lot and skinning up to Lognan, then getting onto the
Argentiere glacier and skinning up that -- instead of taking two big lift
rides up to Aig des Grands Montets and skiing _down_ to the Argentiere
glacier.

And then there's also the bus or taxi ride from Champex to Orsieres to Bourg
St Pierre.

Very authentic backcountry touring style.

Ken

Ulrich Hausmann wrote
But don't tell me you're SKIING with a Scarpa F1
and a small alpiniracer like ski

One year I did some major ski tours in the Alps on Scarpa F1 boots on Atomic
Tourcap Guide skis. Now I use them mostly for fast and light tours in the
Adirondacks. If I were planning that style of touring in interior Sierras
(California), I'd bring them there. In the Alpes du Nord I do see a
surprising number of skiers on F1s who are not fast racers.

Downhill they don't ski

They're way better than my leather Asolo Snowfield boots with a 3-pin
binding. But since the Scarpa F1 has only two buckles, I haven't found it
offers the level of control of a three-buckle. So I just find my 3-buckle
more fun -- and after all that's really why I'm out touring.

... you would have to have a way way heavier equipment.
I'd say the least is something like Scarpa Laser and a 3kg per pair ski.

How did you guess? I do most of my serious touring in the Alpes du Nord in
France in Scarpa Laser boots, Diamir binding, on Tua Crossride 110 skis.
But actually my Scarpa Laser boots are only a little bit heavier than my
Scarpa F1. The big weight difference is in the skis and binding. Easily
worth it for how fun they are to ski in so many different kinds of terrain
and snow.

Ken

Am Donnerstag, den 09.11.2006, 00:23 +0000 schrieb Ken Roberts:

Ulrich Hausmann wrote
Be correct: The Haute Route is not lift served,
save the Verbier part

No, not only the Verbier part.
Unless you think most of the telemarkers are putting their skis on by the
Grands Montets parking lot and skinning up to Lognan, then getting onto the
Argentiere glacier and skinning up that -- instead of taking two big lift
rides up to Aig des Grands Montets and skiing _down_ to the Argentiere
glacier.

And then there's also the bus or taxi ride from Champex to Orsieres to Bourg
St Pierre.

Very authentic backcountry touring style.

Aha! The telemarkers got the cableway to Grand Montet while the fixed
heelers skinned up just from Argentiere???? BTW, most i know started
from Le Tour, not from Argentiere - but you obviously did. Boh ...

Generally, the part between Chamonix and Verbier is in some way tricky
and, for many, even good, reasons, most do the cabane du Trient (and not
Cabane d' Orny). If you doing Cabane d' Orny you descend to Orsieres -
but in the lower part it's a risky and difficult descend.

Between Verbier and Zermatt then, there is nothing about lifts

Even more general: Certainly, you can lament the Alps are not Alaska or
British Columbia or nothern Scandinavia. All, for sure (Northern Sweden
i know personally quite well) fantastic skitouring and backcountry
terrain.

The Alps are what they a A densly populated and at least since
2000/3000 civilized and cultivated mountain range in Central Europe.
There are huts, connections, public services etc. etc. One could even
lament the dense net of cabanes in the Alps is corrupting real
backcountry spirit. But, so what ...???

As i said, i don't like the Haute Route because it's kind of une
"autoroute du ski randonnee". But i'd never say those doing it are no
real randonneurs. Some may be not, many are.

Cheers,

Uli