If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#41
|
|||
|
|||
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In article , John Red-Horse wrote: In article , bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Oct.12.05@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote: _ He's truly gone over to the dark side and has actually been hired by TelemarkTips.com to write about AT stuff. So this precludes him from running his (more than likely copyrighted) bot on Usenet? _ I dunno, even my poor attempts at writing take time. I know where I'd be spending my time if I was actually being paid for it. _ Booker C. Bense -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBQ06bhWTWTAjn5N/lAQFn8QQAsvK6AcJUt0PJi/vHF52A6Hw94hiNUZNd fvr/7bolySGDdKL8GtNImoZoKCoTzbgG5mL1cgnA2OIEZBWFTMeeF6 ELI6f6xg6x d/7sWAe23S361Fx5e6DR0oi/JPWvdPefFRothzGANGKNeHgnOrWWa/XNZbCSW87s cycDFel/5/0= =Vuzl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
Ads |
#42
|
|||
|
|||
In article ,
lac.stanford.edu wrote: _ I dunno, even my poor attempts at writing take time. I know where I'd be spending my time if I was actually being paid for it. Booker, dude, you've got to be kidding; stop it with the false modesty. Anyway, Andrew still finds time in his busy writing schedule to post in the regular threads on t-tips from time to time. (I like to think it's because he feels that it's sort of like shooting fish in a barrel.) I also like to think that the Usenet-propagated tele-v-at thing *is* via a bot. If so, it was written and employed eons ago. Unleash it, Andrew, and come back to watch the catfight... cheers, john |
#43
|
|||
|
|||
Booker C. Bense schrieb:
demonstrating seriousness of intent. Probe Poles and super lightweight plastic shovels make a statement that you don't really think you'll ever have to dig someone up. A little bit belated, but: Regard the plastic shovels. Once, a norvegian guide close to Narvik refused to go out with people that had plastic shovels. They think plastic shovels are not serious and always suggest you to use those of alluminium ... Greetings, Ulrich |
#44
|
|||
|
|||
Uli Hausmann wrote in news:4354c1d2$0$6773$9b4e6d93
@newsread4.arcor-online.net: Booker C. Bense schrieb: demonstrating seriousness of intent. Probe Poles and super lightweight plastic shovels make a statement that you don't really think you'll ever have to dig someone up. A little bit belated, but: Regard the plastic shovels. Once, a norvegian guide close to Narvik refused to go out with people that had plastic shovels. They think plastic shovels are not serious and always suggest you to use those of alluminium ... Greetings, Ulrich This seems bizarre. The most commonly used shovel that I have seen is the Orthovox one with the detatchable telescopic handle and plastic blade. I have one myself and have often used it; it's excellent. Jeremy |
#45
|
|||
|
|||
[ Jeremy Mortimer ]
This seems bizarre. The most commonly used shovel that I have seen is the Orthovox one with the detatchable telescopic handle and plastic blade. I have one myself and have often used it; it's excellent. You've often had to dig through avalance debris? I've been lucky enough to never have to, but just for normal hard, icy layers in the snow (e.g. when digging out a snow cave) I find my metal blade hacks away *much* easier than the (both Ortovox and other main brand) plastic blades I've had occasion to try. Martin -- "An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader." -Paul Graham, On Lisp |
#46
|
|||
|
|||
Martin Thornquist wrote in
: [ Jeremy Mortimer ] This seems bizarre. The most commonly used shovel that I have seen is the Orthovox one with the detatchable telescopic handle and plastic blade. I have one myself and have often used it; it's excellent. You've often had to dig through avalance debris? I've been lucky enough to never have to, but just for normal hard, icy layers in the snow (e.g. when digging out a snow cave) I find my metal blade hacks away *much* easier than the (both Ortovox and other main brand) plastic blades I've had occasion to try. Well, yes, because I sometimes practice searches in avalanche debris. I've also used the shovel to dig a snow hole. To be honest, I've not used a metal shovel, so perhaps I don't know what I'm missing. But I've always been impressed with my plastic one. Jeremy |
#47
|
|||
|
|||
In message
Jeremy Mortimer wrote: Uli Hausmann wrote in news:4354c1d2$0$6773$9b4e6d93 @newsread4.arcor-online.net: Booker C. Bense schrieb: demonstrating seriousness of intent. Probe Poles and super lightweight plastic shovels make a statement that you don't really think you'll ever have to dig someone up. A little bit belated, but: Regard the plastic shovels. Once, a norvegian guide close to Narvik refused to go out with people that had plastic shovels. They think plastic shovels are not serious and always suggest you to use those of alluminium ... Greetings, Ulrich This seems bizarre. The most commonly used shovel that I have seen is the Orthovox one with the detatchable telescopic handle and plastic blade. I have one myself and have often used it; it's excellent. Jeremy Yes I have two ortovox shovels, one with an alloy blade the other with a very strong plastic blade. The plastic one came as part of a kit with an ortovox probe and ortovox rucksack which I use primarily for off-piste rather than touring use. The ortovox plastic shovel seems to be the one more commonly available in the shops around the Chamonix valley and in other French and Swiss ski resorts. However when we were doing the Haute Route in 1999 we were faced with having to snow-hole as a result of bad weather and an avalanche. Some in the party had alloy shovels and some had the ortovox plastic shovels and there was no noticeable difference in the abilities to dig in hard packed snow. It wouldn't surprise me if it turned out that the weakest part of the ortovox shovel was the telescopic handle rather than the plastic blade. Is there any test data that shows that the plastic ortovox is deficient for its purpose or is it just prejudice that metal must be better than plastic? See http://www.haute-route.cd52mike.co.uk/ -- o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark \__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing, " || _`\,_ |__\ \ | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and ` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user" |
#48
|
|||
|
|||
Mike Clark wrote:
plastic blade. Is there any test data that shows that the plastic ortovox is deficient for its purpose or is it just prejudice that metal must be better than plastic? For some values of "purpose"... In my brief experience with lexan blades I've found there's no obvious deficiency in snow but if the snow has started changed to ice then the sharper edge of a metal shovel gives it better penetration. So it will rather depend on the conditions whether what you have is useful or not, I think. For snowholing, cutting into hard nevee it's the blade shape as well as the material based on a few hours digging a planned hole a couple of years ago. Digging into a fairly old bank of nevee we found that a curved blade like the common Norwegian red Whitco shovels worked quite a bit better than the flat blades on the BCA and Voile shovels, though all were good alloy blades. The curved blade carved through the ice better given a running start where the flat blades tended to stall, so they could be used for hacking (rather than plain shovelling) rather better. OTOH, the Voile and BCA shovels seemed to be more efficient at clearing out the debris left by the primary diggers. Pete. -- Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
#49
|
|||
|
|||
Martin Thornquist schrieb:
[ Jeremy Mortimer ] This seems bizarre. The most commonly used shovel that I have seen is the Orthovox one with the detatchable telescopic handle and plastic blade. I have one myself and have often used it; it's excellent. You've often had to dig through avalance debris? I've been lucky enough to never have to, but just for normal hard, icy layers in the snow (e.g. when digging out a snow cave) I find my metal blade hacks away *much* easier than the (both Ortovox and other main brand) plastic blades I've had occasion to try. Hi Martin, it's exactly the reason why the guides up there (at Narvik) advised to use alloy shovels (i follower therir advice). When we had to dig the icy and/or windpressed toward the crest of the Sovande Dronning IMHO there was a clear advantage of that shovels over my experiences with the Ortovox. Greetings, Ulrich |
#50
|
|||
|
|||
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In article , Jeremy Mortimer wrote: Uli Hausmann wrote in news:4354c1d2$0$6773$9b4e6d93 : Booker C. Bense schrieb: demonstrating seriousness of intent. Probe Poles and super lightweight plastic shovels make a statement that you don't really think you'll ever have to dig someone up. A little bit belated, but: Regard the plastic shovels. Once, a norvegian guide close to Narvik refused to go out with people that had plastic shovels. They think plastic shovels are not serious and always suggest you to use those of alluminium ... Greetings, Ulrich This seems bizarre. The most commonly used shovel that I have seen is the Orthovox one with the detatchable telescopic handle and plastic blade. I have one myself and have often used it; it's excellent. _ I carried a plastic shovel for years and it works great for everything but avalanche debris in the Sierra. The snow here is heavy and wet and after an avalanche sets up like concrete. Lexan plastic shovels are probably stronger than alloy, but they tend to bounce off hard snow, rather than chop. I always thought the claims that you needed a metal shovel were bogus, since the plastic ones work so well for everything else and are nearly indestructible. However, I actually made some practice digs in local debris and rapidly changed my mind. My tests were made after a very similar thread to this one about 5-6 years ago. I defended plastic shovels, but based on actually really trying in real avalanche debris, I came to the conclusion that they are certainly better than no shovel, but not the best tool that is reasonable to carry. In a situation where seconds count it seemed to me that the ablity of an alloy shovel to get through stuff in 1 or 2 strokes vs the 5 or 6 needed with a lexan shovel was important. _ Conditions may be quite different where you are, but I would recommend a few sample digs in the debris of avalanches large enough to bury someone. At this point the weight difference is fairly trivial between the two types[1], so there is really no reason not to carry an alloy shovel. If you've made the same tests and come to different conclusions, then I can't argue with that, but you have to make the test. _ Booker C. Bense [1]_ Last time I checked, one of the lightest shovels made was actually alloy. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBQ1U/jGTWTAjn5N/lAQFPqAQAsLTlAQPbqX8KM2qg0slUHyQLF9XgOakN UhC7P4Hb0xOa81c3kR7yLSkuMwAKZrkzOaDHQFg6jPg3NNcOJX swhiibpV7Iez2Y MDx5fPfz+/+wKshSIoGoAHY4BbhxnHCKsilHNcHo9JGPhS1Nhej3alu1r7Av xinY X31H3ZgfscM= =1iVE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Avalanche Center Fall Update | Avalanche Center | Alpine Skiing | 5 | October 8th 03 11:42 PM |
Avalanche Center Fall Update | Avalanche Center | European Ski Resorts | 0 | October 8th 03 07:54 PM |
Avalanche Center Fall Update | Avalanche Center | North American Ski Resorts | 0 | October 8th 03 07:54 PM |
Avalanche Center Fall Update | Avalanche Center | Nordic Skiing | 0 | October 8th 03 07:53 PM |
Avalanche Center Fall Update | Avalanche Center | Backcountry Skiing | 0 | October 8th 03 07:53 PM |