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#31
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This is a really interesting thread - thanks to everyone adding to it.
I am going to have to re-write some of my excuse cards (I keep my excuses on 3x5 cards). I may have to throw out; i'm a big guy. and maybe; i'm getting old. It seems to be from all I can gather - first guy to the top wins. /john |
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#32
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#33
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Alex wrote:
Hi Joseph, This is an interesting thread. On the subject of whether you are too big to ski well, I thought you might be interested in the following anecdote: In the mid-1980s, I did the Hollmenkollmarsj. For those that don't know the race, it is an annual citizen's race held in Oslomarka. The length is 42 km; the course profile is undulating and finishes higher than it starts. The standard at the front end was pretty high then, and probably still is. Norwegian National squad members took the first three places in the race. That would not be worthy of comment, apart for one thing. They were members of the rowing squad, not the ski squad. (Current National ski squad members were not eligible to enter. The organisers made an exception for squads from places like Britain and Denmark.) One of the rowers was definitely the multi-medalled Alf Hansen, and I think his brother Frank was there too. I don't recall the name of the third. I haven't had the privilege of meeting the men. However, I have met National squad rowers in Britain. The internationally successful ones are typically at least 190 cm tall and weigh round about 100kgs. It is highly probable that the rowers who won at Holmenkollen are built on the same scale, so size is not an obstacle to ski-ing uccess. Elite rowers are usually pretty lean too. I don't think it is necessary to be very lean for rowing, but the volume of training means they have to work hard at eating enough. Lean is good for skiing because fat is just surplus weight to be carried uphill. So, if you are not fat, then your weight is not necessarily a limiting factor. Turning to the subject of your recent test; in my experience, fitness tests are specific to the sport trained for. In my rowing days, the club would test people's fitness on rowing and cycling ergonometers. All were trained rowers, but only some of us cycled regularly. The cycling results correlated firstly to how much we cycled, and only when that was factored out, did they have some relation to our rowing scores. So a running test may not tell you much useful, unless you are planning to start running. Anyhow, you sound promising. Some lessons might be a good idea. It is easier to learn correct technique from the start, than try to eradicate bad habits. Happy ski-ing Alex I think Alf Hansen skied about 40 km each day during the winter. He was also a good runner, but because of a rather heavy body, due to big rowing muscles, he was not very good. -- Terje Henriksen Kirkenes |
#34
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Terje Henriksen wrote:
wrote: Terje Henriksen wrote: Remember Juha Mieto and Vladimir Smirnoff? All muscular persons. And today: Svartedal, all muscles. Jens Arne Svartedal is muscular but he is still "only" 82kg. Trond Iversen is 90! That settles it for me. If someone who weighs 90kg can qualify to represent the Norwegian Olympic team in the 50km freestyle, that means de facto that weight is in itself not an issue. It is, if it is fat and not muscles. I believe Juha Mieto weighed over 100 kg. Some people, with heavy bone mass may not be able to run properly, but they may be excellent skiers. He also registered 7.6LO2/min which is the highest absolute value recorded up to now. You need the oxygen to sustain that amount of muscles also. Janne G |
#36
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#37
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Janne G wrote: wrote: Janne G wrote: Terje Henriksen wrote: wrote: Terje Henriksen wrote: Remember Juha Mieto and Vladimir Smirnoff? All muscular persons. And today: Svartedal, all muscles. Jens Arne Svartedal is muscular but he is still "only" 82kg. Trond Iversen is 90! That settles it for me. If someone who weighs 90kg can qualify to represent the Norwegian Olympic team in the 50km freestyle, that means de facto that weight is in itself not an issue. It is, if it is fat and not muscles. I believe Juha Mieto weighed over 100 kg. Some people, with heavy bone mass may not be able to run properly, but they may be excellent skiers. He also registered 7.6LO2/min which is the highest absolute value recorded up to now. You need the oxygen to sustain that amount of muscles also. Janne G Do you know how much he weighed at the time? A large amount of muscles also helps metabolize lactic acid faster too I beileve, speeding recovery from max efforts, and perhaps prolonging the possible duration of max efforts. The muscles are also the main source of lactic production, you don't get something for nothing.. No i don't have exact numbers about his weight, guessing around 90-95kg. Janne G No free lunch! I was thinking actually about how the larger inactive muscle mass (say in the neck, forarms, etc) is available to help metabolize lactic acid produced by the active muscles. Inactive muscle mass isn't just dead-weight. The larger active muscles that are producing lots of actic acid are also producing lots of power. A complicated equation! It is clear that large isn't under the vast majority of circumstances going to be any sort of an advantage except perhaps in a sprint, but it may not be as great a hinderance as it is in most other endurace sports that involve hills. Joseph |
#38
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wasn't part of the formal test. This shows that normal people like us can have high concentrations of lactic acid, not just elite skiers, and thus perhaps the observations in the article do apply to us too! I would be very surprised if an untrained person had _lower_ lactate levels than an elite athlete. The top athlete is going to have much better oxygen delivery, and will repay his "oxygen debt" more rapidly, resulting in less excess lactate for a given workload. Chris |
#39
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Chris Cole wrote: wasn't part of the formal test. This shows that normal people like us can have high concentrations of lactic acid, not just elite skiers, and thus perhaps the observations in the article do apply to us too! I would be very surprised if an untrained person had _lower_ lactate levels than an elite athlete. The top athlete is going to have much better oxygen delivery, and will repay his "oxygen debt" more rapidly, resulting in less excess lactate for a given workload. Chris I don't know about that. My tester said they only give bike-based tests to folks who ride regularly, because other people, even well-trained runners cannot do enough work on a bike to be able to stress their cardio-vascular system to the max to be able to test it. So perhaps there is a similar thing going on when non-trained folks don't get the same high lactic acid levels. They don't have the strength to do any more work and peak at some semi-low level. While elites have bags of strength and their muscles aren't the weak link anymore. Joseph |
#40
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To give an indirect example: When I first classic skied the
Korteloppet in 2002 (short version of the American Birkie), my ave HR for the 23K was 168. Yesterday, it was 153 for a faster time both absolutely and relative to the winners, and 168 was the max. My classic rollerski LT last June was at about 154 and 168 was in L5. Granted there's been some aging (55-59), but there's also been the accumulated effects of training, with special attention this past year to 4-15 min intervals just under and over LT. Gene wrote: Chris Cole wrote: wasn't part of the formal test. This shows that normal people like us can have high concentrations of lactic acid, not just elite skiers, and thus perhaps the observations in the article do apply to us too! I would be very surprised if an untrained person had _lower_ lactate levels than an elite athlete. The top athlete is going to have much better oxygen delivery, and will repay his "oxygen debt" more rapidly, resulting in less excess lactate for a given workload. Chris I don't know about that. My tester said they only give bike-based tests to folks who ride regularly, because other people, even well-trained runners cannot do enough work on a bike to be able to stress their cardio-vascular system to the max to be able to test it. So perhaps there is a similar thing going on when non-trained folks don't get the same high lactic acid levels. They don't have the strength to do any more work and peak at some semi-low level. While elites have bags of strength and their muscles aren't the weak link anymore. Joseph |
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