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What's up with the "No Glidewax, No Grind" Kuzmin stuff?



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 29th 06, 03:12 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Default What's up with the "No Glidewax, No Grind" Kuzmin stuff?

I've been noticing this Kuzmin discussion over the past year.

About how glide wax and stone grinding is not needed, slows your skis,
is a bad idea.

One thing that occurs to me is that he doesn't seem to compare actual
glide tests of skis, or any kind of use results (like over a long
distance). He sticks to theory. And by pure theory he may have some
points. Except that wax/glide theory seems to me to be full of
unknowns. It's a good field to explore, for sure. But it seems only of
interest to skiers in the end to include practical application.
Otherwise it's just part of ongoing NONAPPLIED science that might
someday be relevant. Or am I missing something? Has he actually shown
somewhere that dry, metal-scraped, manually rilled skis can be faster?

Basically he seems to be saying that wax is less hydrophobic and gets
dirtier than a dry ski base. He also says that stone-grinding is less
effective against various friction forces than metal-scraping. That's
just off the top of my head. But so much for talk and theory---anything
that actually works better in what he's saying?

I think that for sure it's something that science needs to keep
studying...along with kickwax, eh? But maybe there's nothing practical
in his ideas so far. It does seem like his research is provoked by
practicality: he says that ski waxing and prep has become way too
expensive and complex. Does he have a point at all beyond griping? I
mean, sure it's pricey---but aren't the skis faster as a result? Or has
everyone been fooling themselves... : )

--JP

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  #3  
Old November 29th 06, 04:19 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Bjorn A. Payne Diaz
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Posts: 104
Default What's up with the "No Glidewax, No Grind" Kuzmin stuff?

Jeff,
After reading the article (quite a while back), I got the feeling this
was a proposal. Maybe a proposal for a thesis project, e.g. submitted
at the two year point in a PhD program, or maybe a masters program. A
number of the ideas seemed premature, and I don't think most advisors
would accept this as a final thesis. I seem to remember some strawman
arguements and some assumptions not backed with data.

I got the real feeling that Kuzmin wants to be an iconoclast. It's fun
to knock down tightly held beliefs, but you better have some good
evidence that is bullet proof. You're right that he doesn't have (as I
remember) any data from on-snow glide tests. That would be the good
evidence and I would bet some other people have probably done glide
tests showing metal scraped skis are slower than waxed in all but some
very unusual conditions (like the '95 worlds).

One interesting sidenote. When I played with Cerax, it was really hard
to find when the stuff was fast or slow. I figured part of this
inconsistency was that Cerax did not wear off the ski like a
traditional wax does. The other thing was that a number of the coatings
(according to the scientist I talked with) were "not that hydrophobic."
(1,2, 3 and 5). So that brings up another interesting discussion.
Anyway, I'm betting that poor conditions for Cerax and for unwaxed skis
might be similar. (I think very new snow or wind blown snow would be a
problem for both.)


almost done being sick....

Jay

wrote:
I've been noticing this Kuzmin discussion over the past year.

About how glide wax and stone grinding is not needed, slows your skis,
is a bad idea.


  #4  
Old November 29th 06, 06:40 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Default What's up with the "No Glidewax, No Grind" Kuzmin stuff?


After reading the article (quite a while back), I got the feeling this
was a proposal. Maybe a proposal for a thesis project, e.g. submitted
at the two year point in a PhD program, or maybe a masters program.


per conversation with Kuzmin this WAS his thesis, and he was granted a
degree for it. I wonder what kind of a university could grant a degree
based on that type of research. In that conversation, Kuzmin was using
the fact that the degree has been granted to justify that the research
was of acceptable quality.

  #5  
Old November 29th 06, 08:28 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Default What's up with the "No Glidewax, No Grind" Kuzmin stuff?

Whatever gave you the idea that substantive quality of
research was a criteria for a degree? It's not even a criteria for
tenure.

" wrote:


After reading the article (quite a while back), I got the feeling this
was a proposal. Maybe a proposal for a thesis project, e.g. submitted
at the two year point in a PhD program, or maybe a masters program.


per conversation with Kuzmin this WAS his thesis, and he was granted a
degree for it. I wonder what kind of a university could grant a degree
based on that type of research. In that conversation, Kuzmin was using
the fact that the degree has been granted to justify that the research
was of acceptable quality.

  #6  
Old November 29th 06, 09:49 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Bjorn A. Payne Diaz
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Posts: 104
Default What's up with the "No Glidewax, No Grind" Kuzmin stuff?

For those that didn't see the earlier post on this:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.s... 7789d0f37cc41

or do a search in this group on "Kuzmin."

Jay

  #7  
Old November 29th 06, 11:18 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Default What's up with the "No Glidewax, No Grind" Kuzmin stuff?

A couple other places have recent Kuzmin action also.

What provoked me to post here was the new story at NordicSkiRacer.com,
where Kuzmin replies to that Mark person:
http://nordicskiracer.com/cgi-bin/ne...sp?NewsID=1080.

Also in the "Cross Country Skier" magazine I got a few weeks ago I
think that Ian Harvey gives a try at refuting Kuzmin, but his points
seem disjointed. I'm thinking that some editorial grafting was
involved. Or maybe not involved enough! : )

I'm just really surprised that anyone making noises about ski
performance wouldn't try out their theories! It all seems like MALARKEY
to me. Total, 100% hogwash without actual on-snow testing.

It may be an attempt at analysis but if it has no relation to reality
it's irelevant. I know that there's not much great science about ski
gliding. But we do have EMPIRICISM! WHAT WORKS? That's all that
matters. If he thinks he has a critique of wax but it actually has no
bearing on reality then his theory is WORSE than existing admittedly
patchy theory.

But, ya know, if there are some kids flying around the woods with dry
rilled skis and they come whippin' past me sometime, I might try what
they got REGARDLESS of the theory behind it. As far as skis goes, what
WORKS leads the way.

OK, I guess that some unapplied theory might start a trend that leads
somewhere cool down the road, so there's that.

--JP
outyourbackdoor.com

  #8  
Old November 29th 06, 11:23 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Default What's up with the "No Glidewax, No Grind" Kuzmin stuff?

PS: But, hey, good questions are worth something. Pure science has its
place in ski research. It may lead somewhere WAY down the road. --JP

  #9  
Old November 29th 06, 11:26 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Default What's up with the "No Glidewax, No Grind" Kuzmin stuff?

PPS: Like wouldn't it be weird if ski wax works but not because of
hydrophobics, or static, or dirt-prevention? He seems to make good
challenges of these things. Yet wax still seems likely to work far
better than a dry metal scraped rilled ski in most conditions. So the
reason why might be something else not thought of yet. What could it
be? That's the mystery, allure and challenge of science....!!! --JP

  #10  
Old November 30th 06, 12:13 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Edgar
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Default What's up with the "No Glidewax, No Grind" Kuzmin stuff?

wrote:

I'm just really surprised that anyone making noises about ski
performance wouldn't try out their theories! It all seems like MALARKEY
to me. Total, 100% hogwash without actual on-snow testing.


The implication that Kuzmin did not do on-snow testing is not correct.
The Kuzmin papers describe in detail his on-snow testing as well as his
laboratory examination of ski running surfaces.

Whether we agree with his conclusions or not, his papers certainly
provide sufficient details (his thesis is 70 pages long including cover
and appendices) for someone to try to test his theory. The Kuzmin
thesis "Investigation of the most essential factors influencing ski
glide" is a collection of two Kuzmin papers:

"Contact angle on the running surfaces of cross-country skis"

"Dirt absorption on the ski running surface - Quantification and
influence on the gliding ability"

As part of the second paper, Kuzmin describes glide testing on a
"controll slope", and illustrates the paper with a photo showing a
skier in a tuck position on the control track. He describes the
control slope as 170 M long with the first 70 M steep and the last 100
M less steep such that the skier's velocity was about 10 m/s in the
flat section.

I believe that Kuzmin's work is more in support of what we in the
States would call a Masters degree and is not in support of a Doctorial
level degree. As a Masters thesis, I suspect that his University
advisors were more interested in the quality of the research process
and documentation of his study than the results or findings of his
study. The papers describe his work in enough detail that others could
conduct similar test to see if Kuzmin's results can be replicated
over a wider range of conditions.

Until other researchers prove otherwise, I intend to keep waxing
because it seems to work for me.

Still waxing,
Edgar

 




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