Blind me with beer science

On Feb 22, 8:37 pm, klaus wrote:
Yabahoobs wrote:
To a point. There would be a sigmoidal curve (freeze point-x vs.
alcohol content y) approaching, but never hitting the freeze point of
ethanol.

Yes. But this is why they put methanol in windshield washer fluid.

But yah know.. looking at the phase diagram for water, I think you
were right about the adiabatic cooling being the culprit and the
pressure differemce as the reason, especially considering that the
alcohol content of the two beers is pretty close. Incresed pressure
would normally mean it would freeze at a warmer temp. So I think I was
confused.

-klaus

Physics / CHem rules.

On Feb 22, 10:37 pm, klaus wrote:
Yabahoobs wrote:
To a point. There would be a sigmoidal curve (freeze point-x vs.
alcohol content y) approaching, but never hitting the freeze point of
ethanol.

Yes. But this is why they put methanol in windshield washer fluid.

But yah know.. looking at the phase diagram for water, I think you
were right about the adiabatic cooling being the culprit and the
pressure differemce as the reason, especially considering that the
alcohol content of the two beers is pretty close. Incresed pressure
would normally mean it would freeze at a warmer temp. So I think I was
confused.

-klaus

Can't hang with your vocabulary but the O'Dell's is definitely more
carbonated than the Sierra Nevada.

Chris

Yabahoobs wrote:

Physics / CHem rules.


Don't leave out Thermo. ; Entropy is the story of my life, and it
never is negative.

-klaus

On 22 Feb 2007 19:25:14 -0800, "Yabahoobs"
wrote:

On Feb 22, 8:10 pm, "John R. Copeland"
wrote:
"bumpfreaq" wrote in ooglegroups.com...
Ok, here's a sciency query for y'all.

I get to my motel with plenty of beer. I've got Sierra Nevada Pale
Ale, Sierra Nevada Wheat and O'Dell's 5 Barrel Pale Ale. The mini
fridge isn't quite chilly enough so I ratchet the thermostat down a
bit then load in the bottles, filling up each available space in turn
but rotating the different flavors so that I have ready access to
whatever suits my momentary fancy. The next evening when I return
"home" from skiing I select a wheat beer and it's quite frosty. Next
up is a SNPA, of course it's mighty chilly as well. When I get to the
O'Dell's it instantly freezes as soon as I open it. This remains the
case for each O'Dell's no matter what part of the fridge it came from,
but is never the case for the other two brews no matter what part of
the fridge they were chilling in.

Can anyone explain this?

Chris

Could be lower alcohol content in O'Dell's.
Could be higher CO2 pressure in O'Dell's.
Could be both.


The insti freezing of the O'dells means that the extra pressure of
those bottles allowed the beer to cool beyond it's normal atmospheric
pressure freeze point. when that pressure was release it was allowed
to freeze.

But all three beers would have been cooled to the same temperature, so
the O'Dell's apparently has a higher freezing point at 1 bar +/-.
Unless the higher pressure affects the specific heat, so one cooled
quicker than the other two? But then wouldn't the higher pressure
(higher density?) beer cool slower, and be less likely to solidify
after a limited cooling period?


Also, once that pressure was released, ice formation and decreased
temp is favored entropicly

Hell, if you don't favor entropy, you're some kind of fascist.

bw

"bdubya"wrote
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 22:10:32 -0500, "John R. Copeland"
wrote:

"bumpfreaq" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ok, here's a sciency query for y'all.

I get to my motel with plenty of beer. I've got Sierra Nevada Pale
Ale, Sierra Nevada Wheat and O'Dell's 5 Barrel Pale Ale. The mini
fridge isn't quite chilly enough so I ratchet the thermostat down a
bit then load in the bottles, filling up each available space in turn
but rotating the different flavors so that I have ready access to
whatever suits my momentary fancy. The next evening when I return
"home" from skiing I select a wheat beer and it's quite frosty. Next
up is a SNPA, of course it's mighty chilly as well. When I get to the
O'Dell's it instantly freezes as soon as I open it. This remains the
case for each O'Dell's no matter what part of the fridge it came from,
but is never the case for the other two brews no matter what part of
the fridge they were chilling in.

Can anyone explain this?

Chris


Could be lower alcohol content in O'Dell's.
Could be higher CO2 pressure in O'Dell's.
Could be both.

The alcohol content makes sense to me. But, while I can see how the
higher CO2 pressure would keep the O'Dell's from freezing while
sealed, I'm not clear on how it would prompt freezing when the
pressure is released. (Not playing "gotcha", just geniunely curious)

I have't had the O'Dell's, but IMHO the Sierra Nevada doesn't need to
be anywhere near freezing to be palatable.

CO2 contributed to two factors beer freezing upon opening a bottle of beer.

First since Beer is mostly water, and water melts under pressure. (think how
skiing and ice skating works) the pressure from the CO2 retards freezing
prior to opening. once the bottle is open this "anti-freezing" function
stops being present.

Secondly when gasses expand they cool. This is the bases of all
refrigeration units; mechanically compress a gas, cool it to room
temperature, then let it expand thus extracting heat then repeat. The CO2
expanding and bubbling out of the beer will cool the beer slightly.

Sounds like an invention for the next beer revolution, self cooling cans.
Anyone want to invest?


I think it is time to start rec.skiing.alpine.science

--
Stephen B.
NYC - Carpe Skium
To reply remove the first spam only

In article 8evDh.7193$lo1.3196@trndny05,
"Stephen B." wrote:

Sounds like an invention for the next beer revolution, self cooling cans.
Anyone want to invest?

Actually those have been around at least since the early 80s. They rank
right up with $1 coins as far as things that seem like a good idea but
really catch on - there's probably an economic reality to it too.

Regardless:

http://www.engadget.com/2006/04/20/m...-cooling-beer-
cans-next-year/

bumpfreaq wrote:


Can anyone explain this?

Yes.

You drink your beer way too cold. Try cool room temp.

"bumpfreaq" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ok, here's a sciency query for y'all.

I get to my motel with plenty of beer. I've got Sierra Nevada Pale
Ale, Sierra Nevada Wheat and O'Dell's 5 Barrel Pale Ale. The mini
fridge isn't quite chilly enough so I ratchet the thermostat down a
bit then load in the bottles, filling up each available space in turn
but rotating the different flavors so that I have ready access to
whatever suits my momentary fancy. The next evening when I return
"home" from skiing I select a wheat beer and it's quite frosty. Next
up is a SNPA, of course it's mighty chilly as well. When I get to the
O'Dell's it instantly freezes as soon as I open it. This remains the
case for each O'Dell's no matter what part of the fridge it came from,
but is never the case for the other two brews no matter what part of
the fridge they were chilling in.

I used to chill bottled coke in my dorm room in Boston by setting
it outside the window for awhile. I often would open one and have
it start spouting a column of ice as it froze. The ice would rise in
a column out of the bottle.

Bob

Bob F wrote:
"bumpfreaq" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ok, here's a sciency query for y'all.

I get to my motel with plenty of beer. I've got Sierra Nevada Pale
Ale, Sierra Nevada Wheat and O'Dell's 5 Barrel Pale Ale. The mini
fridge isn't quite chilly enough so I ratchet the thermostat down a
bit then load in the bottles, filling up each available space in turn
but rotating the different flavors so that I have ready access to
whatever suits my momentary fancy. The next evening when I return
"home" from skiing I select a wheat beer and it's quite frosty. Next
up is a SNPA, of course it's mighty chilly as well. When I get to the
O'Dell's it instantly freezes as soon as I open it. This remains the
case for each O'Dell's no matter what part of the fridge it came from,
but is never the case for the other two brews no matter what part of
the fridge they were chilling in.

I used to chill bottled coke in my dorm room in Boston by setting
it outside the window for awhile. I often would open one and have
it start spouting a column of ice as it froze. The ice would rise in
a column out of the bottle.

Coke? Coca-Cola? Coca-frigging-Cola!? In a BEER thread?

You should be ashamed of yourself.

//Walt

"Stephen B." wrote in message
news:8evDh.7193$lo1.3196@trndny05...
"bdubya"wrote
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 22:10:32 -0500, "John R. Copeland"
wrote:

"bumpfreaq" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ok, here's a sciency query for y'all.

I get to my motel with plenty of beer. I've got Sierra Nevada Pale
Ale, Sierra Nevada Wheat and O'Dell's 5 Barrel Pale Ale. The mini
fridge isn't quite chilly enough so I ratchet the thermostat down a
bit then load in the bottles, filling up each available space in turn
but rotating the different flavors so that I have ready access to
whatever suits my momentary fancy. The next evening when I return
"home" from skiing I select a wheat beer and it's quite frosty. Next
up is a SNPA, of course it's mighty chilly as well. When I get to
the
O'Dell's it instantly freezes as soon as I open it. This remains the
case for each O'Dell's no matter what part of the fridge it came
from,
but is never the case for the other two brews no matter what part of
the fridge they were chilling in.

Can anyone explain this?

Chris


Could be lower alcohol content in O'Dell's.
Could be higher CO2 pressure in O'Dell's.
Could be both.

The alcohol content makes sense to me. But, while I can see how the
higher CO2 pressure would keep the O'Dell's from freezing while
sealed, I'm not clear on how it would prompt freezing when the
pressure is released. (Not playing "gotcha", just geniunely curious)

I have't had the O'Dell's, but IMHO the Sierra Nevada doesn't need to
be anywhere near freezing to be palatable.

CO2 contributed to two factors beer freezing upon opening a bottle of
beer.

First since Beer is mostly water, and water melts under pressure. (think
how
skiing and ice skating works) the pressure from the CO2 retards freezing
prior to opening. once the bottle is open this "anti-freezing" function
stops being present.

Secondly when gasses expand they cool. This is the bases of all
refrigeration units; mechanically compress a gas, cool it to room
temperature, then let it expand thus extracting heat then repeat. The CO2
expanding and bubbling out of the beer will cool the beer slightly.

Sounds like an invention for the next beer revolution, self cooling cans.
Anyone want to invest?


I think it is time to start rec.skiing.alpine.science

--
Stephen B.
NYC - Carpe Skium
To reply remove the first spam only


To separate the alcohol and CO2 effects, open one can of SN and one can of O
’Dell’s (you can pour out and drink one half of each can) and put the half
empty cans back into the refrigerator. At this point the two beers in the
open cans should have about the same amount of CO2. If both freeze or
neither freezes, you just wasted some beer, but one has to make sacrifices
for science!

If the O’Dell’s freezes and SN does not, then the higher alcohol (plus
sugars, salts, soluble proteins, etc) is keeping the SN from freezing. If
O’Dell’s does not freeze then the freezing during opening was caused by the
expansion cooling of CO2.

Ernie