Wedge vs. Stem; The Difference.

The Real Bev wrote:

Dave M wrote:



I was speaking of my daughter who is 4 and a very crucial (in her mind)
half. She has been on skis for two seasons already and enjoys it a lot.
I was just rying to figure out how to explain your ideas to her in a way
that she can a) understand and b) follow or if she is too young for the
magic turn idea altogether.



What happens if you say "Follow me down the hill"? Can she turn to
follow you even if she doesn't know what she's doing? Like teaching a
kid to ride a bicycle -- take the pedals off and pretty soon the kid can
balance long enough to pedal when you put them back on. The result is
what counts, not the intellectual process by which it was arrived at.



No, I agree that the result is what counts, for sure. I spend a lot of
time following *her down the hill since she loves to be the "line
leader" or the "snake leader". She can tho follow me all over the place
and she turns where she wants, controls her speed well even on modest
intermediate runs and does a decent job of staying forward over her skis
most of the time in the process. *Her only real complaint is that she
doesn't get to ski in the trees like the big kids (I am considered a big
kid these days) and she doesn't get enough hot cocoa.

She takes lessons many days but also just skis a lot with us. She will
prolly never be a WC downhiller so fun is the goal, not perfection.

She is/was making some transitions to "parallel" skiing and some
tentative efforts to mimic mom and dad in their turns -- more
"parallel", less "wedgie". I am just looking for ways to continue to
help her improve while continuing to have fun with her, that's all. As
F2f notes, below (I think) she is good at what she does but explaining
what comes next in a way that she understands can be challenging as she
is quite beyond the bunny hill and I can only ski backwards so
far/fast/long among other reasons. Lots of trial and error and mimicry
for here seems to be working so far.

Oh well, until we get some real snow, we will have to continue to wear
our skis in the basment and practice our standing position and -- most
fun of all -- getting up when we fall, on the carpet.

The good news is that there are lots of flakes falling right now. I
sacrificed several libations last night and it seems that Bombay Saphire
Martinis coupled with Feta and/or Danish Blue may be the trick. I will
try again tonight maybe.

Dave M.

"yunlong" wrote in message


"Downhill" and "uphill" are used to reference the skis position in
relation to the slope, and "inside" and "outside" are used to
reference the ski position in relation to the turning,

Yes but a skier is always turning. Unless they're traversing,
or standing, in which case there would be an uphill and
downhill ski. Once the turning starts, uphill and downhill
don't exist anymore, just inside and outside ski.

most the time
they are referring the same ski, but there are circumstances that they
are different (e.g. turning downward on the upper part of a vert, or
the like).

Most beginners only know "uphill" and "downhill" as they haven't
figured out what is inside or outside of a turn as they don't know
what a turn is.

And they'll stay beginners unless someone gets them to
realize what inside and outside ski are right from the start.
This "uphill downhill ski" stuff is part of what has kept
beginners on the bunny hill for years. 1930's ski material
I have refers to inside/outside ski. Some genius came up
with this uphill downhill junk in the fifties or sixties. Then
everybody apparently jumped on it and wouldn't let go.

Here's a way to explain inside/outside ski to a seven year old.

Or older.

Draw a circle on the snow and ask the kid to identify the inside
and outside of the circle. A monkey could do that. Well, just
about. Then walk around in a circle, and ask the kid to identify
your outside foot. The kid will. Trust me. Then walk around the
other way, ask the kid to ID the outside foot. They will. Then
walk down the hill in S turn pattern, and ask the kid to ID your
outside foot with each change of direction. Then tell the kid
that all the weight goes on the outside ski.

Then the kid will go.."OOOOOHHHHHH" I get it"

This works as well with adults as kids, but it won't work all
that well for magical thinkers (kids under 6). Even if they can
ID the feet as inside and outside, the whole concept is usually
too much for them.

If you want to explain something to a magical thinker, you could
say to push on the opposite foot from which way they want to
turn. Even that is too much for many though.
..
The "edge" thing has always been confused as well. "inside
edges" meant both big toe edges to some, to others it was the
inside edges in a turn, or the outside ski big toe edge, and
inside ski pinky edge. Some would call the latter "parallel
edges". Including me.

That's why the ski informational world has mostly moved to
Big toe, pinky toe edges, and inside outside ski.

If turning is in the picture at all, there is no longer such a thing
as uphill/downhill ski, because this is always changing. It's the
outside and inside ski all the way through the turn, until a new
turn has fully begun.

If you want to talk about transition from turn to turn, then "new"
inside or outside ski is usually the terminology used. For examle,
"shift your weight to the new outside ski early, before the new
turn has even started".


That would work, as long as they identify the proper edge and their
functions.


IS

Thanks for the replies Yun.

"The Real Bev" wrote in message


What happens if you say "Follow me down the hill"? Can she turn to
follow you even if she doesn't know what she's doing?

With a magical thinker? Sometimes maybe a fair amount if the
time, yes. Without another word or demonstration, they just do
it. Some even in perfect steered parallel.

foot2foot wrote:

"The Real Bev" wrote in message

What happens if you say "Follow me down the hill"? Can she turn to
follow you even if she doesn't know what she's doing?

With a magical thinker? Sometimes maybe a fair amount if the
time, yes. Without another word or demonstration, they just do
it. Some even in perfect steered parallel.

Why does it have to be "magical"? When you realize that thing1 works
and thing2 doesn't, you tend to do thing1 without even thinking about
it. It's what we call "learning", and it explains why we generally
don't see teenagers crawling around on their hands and knees.

--
Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~
While you can't fool all the people all the time, you can fool
enough of them most of the time to make the rest impotent.

Dave M wrote:

The Real Bev wrote:

Dave M wrote:

I was speaking of my daughter who is 4 and a very crucial (in her mind)
half. She has been on skis for two seasons already and enjoys it a lot.
I was just rying to figure out how to explain your ideas to her in a way
that she can a) understand and b) follow or if she is too young for the
magic turn idea altogether.

What happens if you say "Follow me down the hill"? Can she turn to
follow you even if she doesn't know what she's doing? Like teaching a
kid to ride a bicycle -- take the pedals off and pretty soon the kid can
balance long enough to pedal when you put them back on. The result is
what counts, not the intellectual process by which it was arrived at.

No, I agree that the result is what counts, for sure. I spend a lot of
time following *her down the hill since she loves to be the "line
leader" or the "snake leader". She can tho follow me all over the place
and she turns where she wants, controls her speed well even on modest
intermediate runs and does a decent job of staying forward over her skis
mom/daf the time in the process. *Her only real complaint is that she
doesn't get to ski in the trees like the big kids (I am considered a big
kid these days) and she doesn't get enough hot cocoa.

Extra thermos. The trees are your problem.

She takes lessons many days but also just skis a lot with us. She will
prolly never be a WC downhiller so fun is the goal, not perfection.

She is/was making some transitions to "parallel" skiing and some
tentative efforts to mimic mom and dad in their turns -- more
"parallel", less "wedgie". I am just looking for ways to continue to
help her improve while continuing to have fun with her, that's all. As
F2f notes, below (I think) she is good at what she does but explaining
what comes next in a way that she understands can be challenging as she
is quite beyond the bunny hill and I can only ski backwards so
far/fast/long among other reasons. Lots of trial and error and mimicry
for here seems to be working so far.

Grandma here. She seems to be progressing more or less naturally and
seems to be having a lot of fun while doing it. Unless your goal is to
turn her into a Contender before she hits kindergarten, I have to wonder
what you think is wrong with the current program?

Remember the "Daddy, where did I come from?" joke? The kid expected not
the long-winded answer involving charts, diagrams and an explanation of
DNA, but something like 'Akron', where his friend was born.

Oh well, until we get some real snow, we will have to continue to wear
our skis in the basment and practice our standing position and -- most
fun of all -- getting up when we fall, on the carpet.

The good news is that there are lots of flakes falling right now. I
sacrificed several libations last night and it seems that Bombay Saphire
Martinis coupled with Feta and/or Danish Blue may be the trick. I will
try again tonight maybe.

Excellent. Locally, they're spending the next week from 8:30 am to 4:00
pm with the road closed so they can deal with dangerous trees knocked
down (presumably) by the last storm. Open on weekends, of course.
*******s. And holiday rates start Dec 18. Double *******s.

--
Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~
While you can't fool all the people all the time, you can fool
enough of them most of the time to make the rest impotent.

The Real Bev wrote:

snip


Extra thermos. The trees are your problem.

And my delight as well.


snip

Grandma here. She seems to be progressing more or less naturally and
seems to be having a lot of fun while doing it. Unless your goal is to
turn her into a Contender before she hits kindergarten, I have to wonder
what you think is wrong with the current program?


snip

Nothing wrong with the program. Doesn't mean that I should stop thinking
about things or looking at other options and ideas. Just chatting. The
current program works well now but she tends to change rather rapidly
across a number of criteria. Maybe tomorrow (or whenever the hiils open
'round here) something else might come in handy to have thought about.

Excellent. Locally, they're spending the next week from 8:30 am to 4:00
pm with the road closed so they can deal with dangerous trees knocked
down (presumably) by the last storm. Open on weekends, of course.
*******s. And holiday rates start Dec 18. Double *******s.

I am just hoping that things are open by Dec 18. Lookout pass is the
only one brave enough to open and they did it with an 8" base at the
bottom -- blech.

Dave M.

To make a magic turn, traverse, make a wedge to set the
edges of both skis, transfer weight to the outside ski and
pick up the tail of the inside ski (while leaving the tip of the
inside ski on the snow) and put it back next to the outside ski.
Always hold hands well in front of you, shoulders square to
your direction of travel. Or, at first, keep the shoulders square
to the skis. Skiing is done with the legs, not the shoulders.

That's the classic definition of the stem christy. Why give it a new name?

Your trying to compare it with the plain "stem turn" which is a different turn.

TCS (The Colorado Skier)
Colorado is now open for skiing

TCS wrote:

To make a magic turn, traverse, make a wedge to set the
edges of both skis, transfer weight to the outside ski and
pick up the tail of the inside ski (while leaving the tip of the
inside ski on the snow) and put it back next to the outside ski.
Always hold hands well in front of you, shoulders square to
your direction of travel. Or, at first, keep the shoulders square
to the skis. Skiing is done with the legs, not the shoulders.


That's the classic definition of the stem christy. Why give it a new name?

Cuz if you give it a new name, you get to create a new certification
that you make everybody go through, and until they're all certified, you
can sneer at them for not being as expert as you.

--
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield, other days you're the bug.

"TCS" wrote in message
...
To make a magic turn, traverse, make a wedge to set the
edges of both skis, transfer weight to the outside ski and
pick up the tail of the inside ski (while leaving the tip of the
inside ski on the snow) and put it back next to the outside ski.
Always hold hands well in front of you, shoulders square to
your direction of travel. Or, at first, keep the shoulders square
to the skis. Skiing is done with the legs, not the shoulders.

That's the classic definition of the stem christy. Why give it a new
name?

It's not the same at all. With a wedge initiation, *both* ski tails
are extended out into a wedge. With a stem, one ski stays
where it is in the traverse. The other ski tail is extended out to
make the v-shape.

With a wedge initiation, body alignment and weight
distribution stay optimal for any kind of turn. With a stem,
weight is tossed around from one side to the other.

With a wedge start, crossover remains optimized, with a
stem, crossover is interfered with, actually prevented until
the final transfer of weight.

A stem initiation is counter productive. It actually prevents
a real slipped parallel turn. A wedge initiation leads right
into a parallel turn. There's a reason for that.

Plus, the added (although classic) technique of picking
up only the tail of the inside ski puts it all together.
This is something that all but disappeared from teaching
until a few years ago, apparently after being revived by
Eastern European instructors teaching in the U.S.

Parallel in two hours consistently over a large group of
students. Any group of students. The "classic" stem christy
method of teaching ski matching could never do that.

Really, they're as different as day and night, and so are
the results.

I *can* dig out the classical definition of a stem christy
right out of 1930 or so. Britt doesn't want me to. You?
Then, I have some sixtyish manuals that may describe
the old stem technique.


Your trying to compare it with the plain "stem turn" which is a different
turn.

HMmm, I'd appreciate more enlightenment on that one, but I don't
think so.

"The Real Bev" wrote in message
...
foot2foot wrote:

"The Real Bev" wrote in message

What happens if you say "Follow me down the hill"? Can she turn to
follow you even if she doesn't know what she's doing?

With a magical thinker? Sometimes maybe a fair amount if the
time, yes. Without another word or demonstration, they just do
it. Some even in perfect steered parallel.

Why does it have to be "magical"? When you realize that thing1 works
and thing2 doesn't, you tend to do thing1 without even thinking about
it. It's what we call "learning", and it explains why we generally
don't see teenagers crawling around on their hands and knees.

No, teenagers have generally progressed into formal operations.