Wedge vs. Stem; The Difference.

OK, Britt wants to know the difference, (he claims, maybe he
just wants more argument for argument's sake) and it actually
comes up all the time, you try to explain magic turns and sooner
or later somebody pipes up and says "yeahhh that's just the old
stem christy". But it's not.

People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a
wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does,
how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into
making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"?

Today, use magic turns.

To make a magic turn, traverse, make a wedge to set the
edges of both skis, transfer weight to the outside ski and
pick up the tail of the inside ski (while leaving the tip of the
inside ski on the snow) and put it back next to the outside ski.
Always hold hands well in front of you, shoulders square to
your direction of travel. Or, at first, keep the shoulders square
to the skis. Skiing is done with the legs, not the shoulders.

To do the old stem that comes out of the twenties or thirties,
traverse, put *all* the weight on the inside ski, (unnatural
and difficult at best), while leaving that inside ski in the traverse
path you're already on, extend the fully unweighted outside ski
to make a "v" shape with both skis, tips close, tails spread
apart. *THEN*, transfer all the weight from the inside ski
(if you haven't fallen over yet) to the *outside ski*, *THENNN*
pick up the inside ski and put it next to the outside ski, and
*TTTHHHENNNN* even out the weight onto both skis a
bit and turn.

Cmon. You *really* can't see the difference?


See, there's a lot of unnatural steps and extra motion
to the stem that doesn't happen if you initiate a turn
with a *wedge*. Right?

Serious replies only please. No subject changing,
small talk or giggle posts.

Pretty please?

"foot2foot" wrote

People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a
wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does,
how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into
making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"?

Serious replies only please. No subject changing,
small talk or giggle posts.

I'm really serious: why is it such a big deal? I've
witnessed no less than five people of very different
background start skiing parallel on their first or
second day with very little external influence. They
all had grave problems with more difficult terrain though,
and for that magic turns (I really hate your nomenclature)
probably won't do anything.

I could understand something like this when learning
to snowboard (in fact, that would be really great and
save a lot of broken tailbones), but for skis it should
only be good for reeeeally athletically challanged
chikens.

"Dmitry" wrote in message


I'm really serious: why is it such a big deal?

Because in most cases, it has taken people *years*
to move from the bunny hills to parallel skiing on the
blues. That's why almost all new skiers quit after the
first day. This system solves that problem.

I've witnessed no less than five people of very different
background start skiing parallel on their first or
second day with very little external influence. They
all had grave problems with more difficult terrain though,

Exactly. The magic turns system is what enables a very
new skier to take the steep greens and the blues within
hours. It's highly edged, aggressive, carved. With the old
systems, or with most people that never had any help, on
the steeper terrain, it all falls apart. It's because they have
part of the tools they need, but not all. There are only
a few. If you have them it's easy for anybody.

and for that magic turns (I really hate your nomenclature)

I didn't invent it. An extremely major ski area's learning
center uses this terminology. I decided to steal it. This
system is gaining wider use by the day.

Before I heard that, to me it was a schrittbogen system.
But that only really refers to picking up the tail and leaving
the tip on the snow. It's a whole system that does the job.

You'll *really* hate it if I go back to calling it schrittbogen.

probably won't do anything.

Actually it does everything.

I could understand something like this when learning
to snowboard (in fact, that would be really great and
save a lot of broken tailbones), but for skis it should
only be good for reeeeally athletically challanged
chikens.

Which most new skiers are. If you have a really athletic
type, they can just muscle the skis to do what they want.
Most people can't do this. They need finesse.

The beginner berm is what makes skiing fun and
relaxed for even the most timid. It can help for
snowboarding as well, but snowboarding is different.
Going straight on a flat board just isn't a good idea.
Especially for a beginner No?

"foot2foot" wrote

Because in most cases, it has taken people *years*
to move from the bunny hills to parallel skiing on the
blues. That's why almost all new skiers quit after the
first day. This system solves that problem.

Are you talking about those "ski three times a year" kinda
people?

I've witnessed no less than five people of very different
background start skiing parallel on their first or
second day with very little external influence. They
all had grave problems with more difficult terrain though,

Exactly. The magic turns system is what enables a very
new skier to take the steep greens and the blues within
hours.

Well, if this is the case (blues within hours), than this
is of course totally worth preaching.

Going straight on a flat board just isn't a good idea.

Some people have great problems with it, some are just fine.
It depends a lot on how their bindings are set up (highback
forward lean and angles). I can set up mine to have a lot
of stability just bombing on flat board, but this makes
other things less comfortable.

Especially for a beginner No?

First useful thing a beginner usually learns is J-turns,
which essentially is going from flat to lots of edge. And
the major issue is, just like with skis, they're waaay to
far back on the board.

foot2foot wrote:

"Dmitry" wrote in message


I'm really serious: why is it such a big deal?

Because in most cases, it has taken people *years*
to move from the bunny hills to parallel skiing on the
blues. That's why almost all new skiers quit after the
first day. This system solves that problem.

I've witnessed no less than five people of very different
background start skiing parallel on their first or
second day with very little external influence. They
all had grave problems with more difficult terrain though,

Exactly. The magic turns system is what enables a very
new skier to take the steep greens and the blues within
hours. It's highly edged, aggressive, carved. With the old
systems, or with most people that never had any help, on
the steeper terrain, it all falls apart. It's because they have
part of the tools they need, but not all. There are only
a few. If you have them it's easy for anybody.

and for that magic turns (I really hate your nomenclature)

I didn't invent it. An extremely major ski area's learning
center uses this terminology. I decided to steal it. This
system is gaining wider use by the day.
Hmm, I learnt that magic turn on my ski instructors lessons a good 20
years ago in Austria (called officially "The new Austrian way of
teaching ski" or so). Inofficially it was called "learning to ski
from plow _direct_ to parallell" _without_ the stem. And then it was
some years old.

foot2foot describes correctly, what we learnt to teach pupils to get
to parallel in shortest time (Icould'nt describe it as clealy as he
can).

So, new?

Before I heard that, to me it was a schrittbogen system.
But that only really refers to picking up the tail and leaving
the tip on the snow. It's a whole system that does the job.

You'll *really* hate it if I go back to calling it schrittbogen.

Ha, had to learn schrittbogen myself, not that smooth as your "magic
turns"!

And I _know_ what a stemmbogen is! I had to learn it right trough:
Plow - Schrittbogen - Stemmbogen - parallel - wedeln.

YMMV, but OMHO, steps from plow to stemmbogen are more difficul than
from mastered stemmbogen to parallel.

probably won't do anything.

Actually it does everything.

I could understand something like this when learning
to snowboard (in fact, that would be really great and
save a lot of broken tailbones), but for skis it should
only be good for reeeeally athletically challanged
chikens.

Which most new skiers are. If you have a really athletic
type, they can just muscle the skis to do what they want.
Most people can't do this. They need finesse.

The beginner berm is what makes skiing fun and
relaxed for even the most timid. It can help for
snowboarding as well, but snowboarding is different.
Going straight on a flat board just isn't a good idea.
Especially for a beginner No?

--
Nobody is perfect
not even in failing

"Thomas Raml" wrote in message
...

Hmm, I learnt that magic turn on my ski instructors lessons a good 20
years ago in Austria (called officially "The new Austrian way of
teaching ski" or so). Inofficially it was called "learning to ski
from plow _direct_ to parallell" _without_ the stem. And then it was
some years old.

There's a few new twists. For instance absolute insistence on
hand position, and the concept of home position. Then, wedge
changeups followed up the the schrittbogen schuss drill,
something which I've never seen done before until the last
few years.

Also, there's the bunny berm. An absolutely bombproof
learning progression for even the most terrified or clumsy. No
fear, no danger.

foot2foot describes correctly, what we learnt to teach pupils to get
to parallel in shortest time (Icould'nt describe it as clealy as he
can).

Thank you.

So, new?

Ha, had to learn schrittbogen myself, not that smooth as your "magic
turns"!

And I _know_ what a stemmbogen is! I had to learn it right trough:
Plow - Schrittbogen - Stemmbogen - parallel - wedeln.

In this order that was used, what was the purpose of the
schrittbogen step? Then, to move into Stemmbogen? It makes
no sense, it's like going backward.

And to think they could've just thrown stem out the window
and used the wedge itself to initiate, then gone right to
parallel via schrittbogen.

I'm often wondering about vorlage, rucklage, and some others.
Would these be French?

YMMV, but OMHO, steps from plow to stemmbogen are more difficult than
from mastered stemmbogen to parallel.

I'm not sure what you mean here....

Nobody is perfect
not even in failing

With the bunny berm, a new skier falling is made almost
obsolete.

Austria. Impressive credentials I'd say.

Thanks very much for the reply(s).

foot2foot wrote:




"Thomas Raml" wrote in message
...

Hmm, I learnt that magic turn on my ski instructors lessons a good
20 years ago in Austria (called officially "The new Austrian way of
teaching ski" or so). Inofficially it was called "learning to ski
from plow _direct_ to parallell" _without_ the stem. And then it
was some years old.

There's a few new twists. For instance absolute insistence on
hand position, and the concept of home position. Then, wedge
changeups followed up the the schrittbogen schuss drill,
something which I've never seen done before until the last
few years.

Also, there's the bunny berm. An absolutely bombproof
learning progression for even the most terrified or clumsy. No
fear, no danger.

foot2foot describes correctly, what we learnt to teach pupils to
get to parallel in shortest time (Icould'nt describe it as clealy
as he can).

Thank you.

So, new?

Ha, had to learn schrittbogen myself, not that smooth as your
"magic turns"!

And I _know_ what a stemmbogen is! I had to learn it right trough:
Plow - Schrittbogen - Stemmbogen - parallel - wedeln.

In this order that was used, what was the purpose of the
schrittbogen step? Then, to move into Stemmbogen? It makes
no sense, it's like going backward.

And to think they could've just thrown stem out the window
and used the wedge itself to initiate, then gone right to
parallel via schrittbogen.

That was a good 15 years before my ski instructors lessons. It was the
way you learnt skiing in the first half of the 60ies in Austria in
skischools ;-)

I'm often wondering about vorlage, rucklage, and some others.
Would these be French?

Don't know, but when I mastered parallel and wedeln, there came up
that new turn called "jet turn" (around 1970 me thinks). You had to
have very much ruecklage (imagine the position like sitting on a
chair - ankle of knees ca. 90 Degrees -, leveling out all terrain
with your feet). Looked really elegant to go down a mogul piste (If
you had the strength and stamina). At that time there were sold
enforcements for ski boots you could apply to the rear side of the
boots to improve your rueklage. I still have the tendence to be in
slight ruecklage (deadly with slalom racing carvers now ;-)), old
habits, you know.

YMMV, but OMHO, steps from plow to stemmbogen are more difficult
than
from mastered stemmbogen to parallel.

I'm not sure what you mean here....

I mean, for a beginner it is more difficult to lift one ski off ground
(before the turn its the outer ski) to initiate the turn, than just
shift weight in a plow to the other ski - the beginner has still his
two feet on the ground ;-).

sorry for the late answer, but don't have the time to check all
newsgroups daily :-(.

With the bunny berm, a new skier falling is made almost
obsolete.

Austria. Impressive credentials I'd say.

Thanks very much for the reply(s).

--
Nobody is perfect
not even in failing

"Dmitry" wrote in message
news:Icesd.188394$HA.145589@attbi_s01...

"foot2foot" wrote

People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a
wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does,
how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into
making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"?

Serious replies only please. No subject changing,
small talk or giggle posts.

I'm really serious: why is it such a big deal? I've
witnessed no less than five people of very different
background start skiing parallel on their first or
second day with very little external influence. They
all had grave problems with more difficult terrain though,
and for that magic turns (I really hate your nomenclature)
probably won't do anything.

I could understand something like this when learning
to snowboard (in fact, that would be really great and
save a lot of broken tailbones), but for skis it should
only be good for reeeeally athletically challanged
chikens.


It's OK dumbass We know you don't catch on quick if at all.

"LePheaux" wrote

I could understand something like this when learning
to snowboard (in fact, that would be really great and
save a lot of broken tailbones), but for skis it should
only be good for reeeeally athletically challanged
chikens.

It's OK dumbass We know you don't catch on quick if at all.

**** off, moron.

foot2foot wrote:

OK, Britt wants to know the difference, (he claims, maybe he
just wants more argument for argument's sake) and it actually
comes up all the time, you try to explain magic turns and sooner
or later somebody pipes up and says "yeahhh that's just the old
stem christy". But it's not.

People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a
wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does,
how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into
making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"?

Today, use magic turns.

To make a magic turn, traverse, make a wedge to set the
edges of both skis, transfer weight to the outside ski and
pick up the tail of the inside ski (while leaving the tip of the
inside ski on the snow) and put it back next to the outside ski.
Always hold hands well in front of you, shoulders square to
your direction of travel. Or, at first, keep the shoulders square
to the skis. Skiing is done with the legs, not the shoulders.

To do the old stem that comes out of the twenties or thirties,
traverse, put *all* the weight on the inside ski, (unnatural
and difficult at best), while leaving that inside ski in the traverse
path you're already on, extend the fully unweighted outside ski
to make a "v" shape with both skis, tips close, tails spread
apart. *THEN*, transfer all the weight from the inside ski
(if you haven't fallen over yet) to the *outside ski*, *THENNN*
pick up the inside ski and put it next to the outside ski, and
*TTTHHHENNNN* even out the weight onto both skis a
bit and turn.

Cmon. You *really* can't see the difference?


See, there's a lot of unnatural steps and extra motion
to the stem that doesn't happen if you initiate a turn
with a *wedge*. Right?

Serious replies only please. No subject changing,
small talk or giggle posts.

Pretty please?

I'm a relatively new skier, but I never did the wedge thing. Still not
sure how it works really.

I went from going straight and falling to hockey style stops, then
turned that into carving.

I managed to turn just well enough to get by by hopping up a little bit
and just tossing the tails off to one side. Repeat on the other side.
As I got a feel for the skis I'd "throw" the backs of the skis less and
let them curve a little bit. Eventually I learned to just lean into the
ski the right way instead of actually trying to move it.