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#1
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Mounting Randonnee Bindings
Hi,
I am going to be mounting a pair of Fritschi Freeride's to Dynastar Intuitiv's (Inspired by J. Nobis) and had a few basic questions before I begin. The Fritschi's came with instructions and a mounting template, the Dynastars have a 10mm long black mark on the top labelled ø 4.1 (the first symbol, an "o" with a slash through it, is the greek letter phi). The Fritschi instruction's provide 2 ways of aligning the template to the ski, depending if the ski is marked for the centre of the boot or not. Marked for Centre of Boot Using the template you select the corresponding centre mark on a scale from 24 to 38 depending on your ski boot length. My boots are 305mm in length and are a size 26.0 / 26.5. I am assuming I would choose the 30.5 mark as opposed to the one between 26 and 26.5? In doing so the scale then becomes the boot's sole length in cm. Not Marked for Centre of Boot You measure 1/2 the ski's length from the tail and place the toe mark of the template at this location. I used both methods and compared the toe position. The first method (centre of boot mark) places the toe about 7.5 cm farther forward than the latter method (toe @ centre of ski's length). Since there is quite a large difference in position I would like to know if the factory mark on the Dynastar's is actually indicating the centre of the boot? My last question is then the label ø 4.1 at the black mark. I am assuming that it refers to the diameter in mm that the holes should be drilled for the screws that mount the bindings. This also indicates (according to the Frtischi instruction's) that the ski has an integrated steel plate, and once the hole is drilled it should be tapped. This is a bit confusing to me, as the screw thread is not a standard machine thread and I am not aware of taps for these types of threads. Alternatively I show a #12 - 24 threads per inch about the closest to the screw's major diameter. I tested this in a scrap piece of metal, where I drilled a 4.1mm hole then ran the tap through it. The screw seemed to be able to enter just fine. Hopefully this is the correct method to use. Many thanks for your time and help. Craig |
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#2
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In article , Craig wrote: Hi, I am going to be mounting a pair of Fritschi Freeride's to Dynastar Intuitiv's (Inspired by J. Nobis) and had a few basic questions before I begin. The Fritschi's came with instructions and a mounting template, the Dynastars have a 10mm long black mark on the top labelled ø 4.1 (the first symbol, an "o" with a slash through it, is the greek letter phi). _ This is the drill bit size to use. 4.1mm is standard for skis with metal in the topsheet. You can probably get away with 3.9mm if you have one of those already. ( 9/64 if I remember correctly.. ) The Fritschi instruction's provide 2 ways of aligning the template to the ski, depending if the ski is marked for the centre of the boot or not. Marked for Centre of Boot Using the template you select the corresponding centre mark on a scale from 24 to 38 depending on your ski boot length. My boots are 305mm in length and are a size 26.0 / 26.5. I am assuming I would choose the 30.5 mark as opposed to the one between 26 and 26.5? In doing so the scale then becomes the boot's sole length in cm. Not Marked for Centre of Boot You measure 1/2 the ski's length from the tail and place the toe mark of the template at this location. I used both methods and compared the toe position. The first method (centre of boot mark) places the toe about 7.5 cm farther forward than the latter method (toe @ centre of ski's length). Since there is quite a large difference in position I would like to know if the factory mark on the Dynastar's is actually indicating the centre of the boot? _ I don't know but that big a difference doesn't sound right with relatively short boots. The second instructions sound like a bad translation, the standard is 1/2 the chord length[1], not the ski length. Try that and see if it's not closer. Pretty much alpine ski comes with a boot center mark these days and I would use that if at all possible. My last question is then the label ø 4.1 at the black mark. I am assuming that it refers to the diameter in mm that the holes should be drilled for the screws that mount the bindings. This also indicates (according to the Frtischi instruction's) that the ski has an integrated steel plate, and once the hole is drilled it should be tapped. This is a bit confusing to me, as the screw thread is not a standard machine thread and I am not aware of taps for these types of threads. Alternatively I show a #12 - 24 threads per inch about the closest to the screw's major diameter. I tested this in a scrap piece of metal, where I drilled a 4.1mm hole then ran the tap through it. The screw seemed to be able to enter just fine. Hopefully this is the correct method to use. - - That's exactly what most the ski shop guy's do. You can also just not bother, but that might mess up the screws if you want to move the binding's later. Personally, I've just drilled and used epoxy and not bothered with the threading, but that was on skis that I didn't care too much about. The one thing you do want to make sure you do with a metal topsheet is to counter sink the screw holes. _ A last caution, I am just a cheap ******* who is unwilling to hand $40 bucks to a ski shop to have a teenager[2] drill my skis. You might want to find somebody that claims to know what they are doing... A very hand resource for the home ski tech is the Tognar catalog. I buy something every year just so I'll keep getting the catalog. http://www.tognar.com/ _ Booker C. Bense [1]- Chord length is the length of a string stretched from the ski tip to tail. Not as useful as it used to be with all the strange things ski manufacturers do to tips these days. Boot center if marked is by far the better way to go. [2]- Okay, there are some shops that do it right with experienced people. But if you can't see a chairlift from the front door, chances are the shop isn't one of them. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBP6ajJmTWTAjn5N/lAQGPowP9EgQmrYiiW6tnF+EfONKP5nHVZW2nWQ6n Phwtf07HL66P/VM7uwh88ljMTRfQH4jsPnI7x6wjVbYTwk1ZEcFpaRlJZDGO9Rb E TjEdLsGYcXYKA6xc+HgMFi2/5wHEcMxkSFvXHx+K/KecNGDYwclrCwl7blR/mZMB okHaDNe2Tho= =WG/2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
#3
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lac.stanford.edu wrote: Pretty much alpine ski comes with a boot center mark these days and I would use that if at all possible. I agree. The ski manufacturer should know where the weight should go on the ski, so use their mark if there is one. I have a pair of Tua Excaliburs with Diamir II bindings mounted at chord center. I have always felt that they were a little bit too far back. -Greg |
#4
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I took a few runs once on my brother's identical setup -- heavy, but
impressive! Anyway, ignore the boot size (i.e., 26.0/26.5) and instead go by the boot sole length (i.e., 30.5cm/305mm). You might want to skip all the other alignment methods and just match up the ball of your foot with the middle of the ski’s contact length - hard to measure, but it’s what every other technique is trying to simulate. Here are some other Diamir mounting tips I copied from someone else's post a few yrs ago -- I can't vouch for how well they work, but they certainly seem well thought out: ***** Regarding mounting the bindings, the real challenge is getting the template located correctly fore & aft and making sure it's accurately centered on the ski. The real risk is if the bindings end up slightly angled on the long axis of the ski. Not an easy problem to solve. Here's what I've learned from mounting about six pair of these. 1. Locating binding fore & aft: Measure your boot to determine the sole length in mm's. The sole length should be stamped on the side of the boot. My boots, for example, have a 299mm sole length. On the template, there are a series of boot sole lengths marked off in cms. Find the length that most closely corresponds to your sole length (in my case a 299 mm boot sole would be located just short of the 30 cm line) and match that up with the boot sole midpoint line on your skis. This gives you the correct fore & aft location. If your skis don't have a midsole mark, you can mount using the toe of the boot method. Let me know if that's the case, and I'll give you the details for that if you don't know them already. 2. Locating binding on the long axis: Getting the binding accurately centered is critical. There are centering lines on both ends of the template. Measure the width of the ski in the area where the centering lines will be located and mark the center point on the ski with a pencil. Accurately measuring the center point can be hard on cap skis. It's easier if the skis have vertical sidewalls. Take your time in measuring for the center point and check your work a couple of times to make sure you're right on center. The template also has a series of lines along the edges on both ends that will also help you get it centered. Do not trust the graphics of the ski as reference points. Often times the graphics are not perfectly centered on the top of the ski. I find that if I get one end located and centered, I can then slowly bring the other end of the template down and center it. Don't be afraid to pull the template up multiple times if you're not right on the marks. It has enough stickum to be used several times. An extra set of eyes to look at the template once you think you've got it in the right spot are helpful because you can get a bit cross-eyed looking at it. 3. Punch: Once you're confident that you've got the template in the right spot and have checked and rechecked your measurements for & aft and side to side, take a punch, put it in the crosshairs of the circles on the template and give it a good whack with a hammer. Make sure you hit the right holes on the heel piece. The dark circles are for the medium length binding. Use the spots marked S or XL only if you've got a small or XL binding. There are four holes for the toe piece and three for the heel piece. 4. Drill: Ideally you'll have a 4.1 mm x 9 mm bit with a stop on it to drill the holes. If you don't, figure out what the English equivalent of a 4.1 mm bit is. I think its a 5/32" but you'll have to do some higher math or check in a hardware store to make sure you've got the right sized bit. If you end up using a drill without a stop, wrap some tape around the shaft of the drill at the proper depth so that you don't have the thrill of drilling right through the ski. Use a sharp bit because it won't tend to "run" sideways when you drill. If your drill doesn't have a stop, you should very lightly countersink the holes. Don't remove too much of the top sheet of plastic, but a little bit of countersink keeps the holes from turning into little volcano shaped things that keep the binding from laying flat on the ski. I think it's best to drill and mount one ski at a time. That way if you screw up on the first one, you won't have already drilled and made the same mistake on the second one. You can punch both of them at the same time, but wait to drill the second one until the first one is mounted. 5. Screw: Mount the heel piece first and tighten the screws down. I put a drop of Elmer's white glue in the holes before I screw them down. I thinks there's a thin, clear plastic spacer that goes under the heel piece. The printed directions are pretty good for this part. Once the heel unit is mounted, screw in the toe piece. There's a plastic piece that goes between the binding and the ski. Do the front screws first and don't tighten them all the way down. Flip the rail up perpendicular and screw in the remaining two screws, but don't snug them up. Bring the rail down and make sure that it drops squarely into the opening in the heel piece. If it's a little off center you can give the whole thing a bit of a twist to line it up and then crank the screws down to hold it in the right spot. Make sure that the binding is snugged down flat on the ski. If the rail rubs a little bit on one side, its not a big deal. The main thing is to check to make sure that the whole unit is on straight and not aiming off into left field or right field. If you did your measuring right, there's no problem. Once you do one ski and get it right, then repeat the process for the second ski. 6. Adjusting: Cock the heel piece and put the boot in the binding. Flip the climbing aid up to its highest position (with the boot in the binding) and turn the screw at the rear end of the center rail to adjust for length. The heel piece has to be in the closed position for this to work right. When the head of the screw is flush with the plastic housing, you've got the correct amount of forward pressure. Put the boot in and out of the binding a few times and recheck to make sure that the screw is flush. Adjust it if it's not. Adjust the toe height by turning the screw on the top of the toe piece. You want to have about 1mm of space between the boot sole and the skid plate. I've got a thin piece of plastic about the thickness of a credit card that I use as a feeler guage to check this. Check to see that toe of the boot recenters itself when you give it a firm push from the side. If it doesn't, you've either go too much down pressure or too much forward pressure or both. Back off the forward pressure a bit and if the boot still hangs up, then back off on the toe piece height adjustment screw. Fiddle with these two until you get the boot securely in the binding, but able to recenter. 7. Release settings: The forward release is controlled by a screw on the top of the heel unit. There's a window on the heel piece that has the DIN release values marked The lateral release is adjusted by a screw on the front of the toe unit. There's a window on the center rail that has the DIN release values for the toe piece. The release settings are up to you. If you can find a shop that works on these, they could check them for you. Most shops won't touch them. There's a chart on the directions that has the release values. 8. Brakes & crampons: If you use them, the brakes screw onto the heel piece. There's a plastic heel plate that you flip out with a screwdriver and the brakes screw into the holes underneath with the two screws provided. I recommend brakes over straps particularly when things start to slide. The crampons have little ears on the front that slip into slots in the toe piece and then they clamp down onto the center rail. Most of the time you carry them around wondering why you bother with them, but when you need them, you wouldn't want to be without them. 9. Go skiing: |
#5
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I took a few runs once on my brother's identical setup -- heavy, but
impressive! I heard these are a nice ski, and I do a lot more heli then touring right now, but am trying to get in good enough shape to survive the unassisted ascents. Anyway, ignore the boot size (i.e., 26.0/26.5) and instead go by the boot sole length (i.e., 30.5cm/305mm). Yes, that makes sense now. You might want to skip all the other alignment methods and just match up the ball of your foot with the middle of the ski’s contact length - hard to measure, but it’s what every other technique is trying to simulate. Not sure what the #8217;s is but my guess is to find the chord centre of the radius that provides the ski's camber. I placed my skis on a flat surface and with a strong light I could accurately determine where the main arc of the ski intersected with the tip and tail radii. I measured the straight line distance of this chord, bisected it and marked that point on the skis. Next I positioned my foot on the ski with the ball of my foot directly over this mark, and marked my toe and heel positions. Halfway between these 2 marks I drew the approximate foot centre and it aligned almost perfectly with the factory marking. Eureka! So all of your advice re the factory marking is right on the money...many thanks! A few more details are left for me to sort out though: 1. Instruction say to not bend the ski while drilling the holes. I sort of think the ski should be clamped flat while I position under my drill press. 2. Have read lots about the virtues of epoxy and white waterproof glues. No mention of the latest polyurethanes, are these suitable? 3. Are my Dynastar's a foam core? Not sure I really need to know this ahead of time but was curious. Thanks. Craig |
#6
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Craig wrote:
Using the template you select the corresponding centre mark on a scale from 24 to 38 depending on your ski boot length. My boots are 305mm in length and are a size 26.0 / 26.5. I am assuming I would choose the 30.5 mark as opposed to the one between 26 and 26.5? In doing so the scale then becomes the boot's sole length in cm. the effective length of the sole of the boot is, what you need (the 26 / 26.5 thing is the so called boot volume measurement, invented by salomon in the 70s with their first ski boots. normally two sizes come in one shell). the sole length is printed somewhere laterally on the boots (but you can also measure by yourself). Not Marked for Centre of Boot on the boot. 1/2 of the sole length; in your cas 15,25 cm You measure 1/2 the ski's length from the tail and place the toe mark of the template at this location. take the real length (not what is written on the ski), i.e. the direct line between tail and tip. e.g. most ski's where's written on 180 cm effectively are 177 or so. I used both methods and compared the toe position. The first method (centre of boot mark) places the toe about 7.5 cm farther forward than the latter method (toe @ centre of ski's length). Since there is quite a large difference in position I would like to know if the factory mark on the Dynastar's is actually indicating the centre of the boot? that big difference sounds strange. check with the balance point, i.e. that line, where the ski's back half and forward half are in balance and check if the difference is as big. but: recently i note the ski producers are putting farther forward the marking line for the boot center. may be that's due to the new constructions with closer radius, different weight distribution ecc. anyway, that difference is enormous. what skis do you have, btw? hope this helps a little bit, ulrich |
#8
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Hyva Meininki wrote:
You could follow the guidelines presented at http://www.telemarktips.com/bindingMt2.html for mounting telemark bindings. The ball of foot (BOF) should be aligned with the centre running surface (CRS) of the ski. The methods for determining the BOF and CRS are available at am. site. Good luck. !hyva i do not think it's a good idea to mount alpine bindings in that way. here you see a good example on how the weight and pressure is distributed in alpine skiing (freeriding does not differ that much): http://www.sciaremag.it/tecnica16.html i'd rather go for either mid shoe marking on the ski, which normally is done by the producer in relation the radius of the ski. greetings, ulrich |
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