If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
cera F vs Toko HelX
Ok, some UNbiased answers.
Who is faster... cera F or Toko HelX ? Let's say 34-35 degrees (1 deg C) and humid (95%). Old transformed groomed snow. JK Bradlee's gonna say Toko, Jay's gonna say Cerax, Potter's gonna say Pam cooking spray, Tegeder is gonna say cera F is my guess. No answers from sponsored skiers allowed - too biased. |
Ads |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004, 32 degrees wrote: Ok, some UNbiased answers. Who is faster... cera F or Toko HelX ? Let's say 34-35 degrees (1 deg C) and humid (95%). Old transformed groomed snow. You know, when those waxes are working, your skis are so blindingly fast that it becomes more a question of whether you can keep up with them than which wax is faster. My question, at least partially related to yours is, what's the difference between HelX and good old Streamline? This one at least has a chance of getting a useful answer. :-) -Mitch |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
from what I've read the difference is in the way that the molecule is built.
With Helx the hydrocarbon chain has been made in a "helix" or spiral (DNA type) pattern... rather than "straight" chain (streamline). By doing this they can somehow pack in more fluorine atoms making the entire molecules more hydrophobic. More hydrophobic = more speed on wet snow. JK |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
--- Mitch Collinsworth wrote: My question, at least partially related to yours is, what's the difference between HelX and good old Streamline? This one at least has a chance of getting a useful answer. :-) Here's a biased answer : Streamline (now Jetstream) and Helx are both fluorocarbon waxes. The difference is in the structure of the molecules. In the traditional fluorocarbon waxes like Jetstream you have straight molecular chains of carbon atoms with fluorine atoms attached to them. In Helx the molecule has a helical shape. The idea with this is that you have more fluorine molecule exposed on the the running surface of the ski. The analogy that we use is to hold a straight piece of rope (Jetstream) then wrap the rope around a finger (Helx). The rope around the finger makes a wider mark when pressed against something. Disclaimers: 1) I last took a chemistry class in 1974 and only got a B-. 2) I work for Toko. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. Try some Helx on a really wet day. I think you'll be sold on its value. Rob Bradlee Toko Tech Team |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
--- Mitch Collinsworth wrote:
My question, at least partially related to yours is, what's the difference between HelX and good old Streamline? This one at least has a chance of getting a useful answer. :-) They're both great products, and as with any wax, they have certain snow conditions which are more applicable to one or the other. The one thing you CAN say, however, is that Helx has a definite advantage in quick application, so you can toss it on the ski just before a race a little easier. You're always going to get your Swix v. Toko arguments, but there's not much arguing as to which is easier/quicker to apply. Mark |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
|
#7
|
|||
|
|||
--- Mitch Collinsworth wrote: Yes, that's one of the things I always liked about Streamline. It had the advantage that I could toss it on my skis just before a race if I thought it was called for. Rub it on, cork it in! You can still do this with Jetstream block and I recommend it. We did this for the entire Massachusetts team (40 boys and girls) at the NE J2 (age 14,15) Festival last year. Rub it on, cork it in, brush it out (dedicated brush), polish with polishing pad. Very economical too. We used one block to do the whole team twice (80 wax jobs - some classic, most skate). Rob Bradlee Toko Tech Team |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
ok here is my biased answer to Mitch. Although I am sure that Helx runs well in
the right conitions. I would bet my life I could apply the new Swix FC1 Turbo in a shorter period of time before a race. As there is no drying time as with Helx. It is a sintered block and can be crayoned on, corked in and brushed out in a few minutes. I know, and i think Rob will vouch for this, that the Helx has to be VERY dry before you buff it, as the same is true with the new FC08L Liquid Cera F from Swix. The FC01S runs VERY well in a huge temperature range and is by far my favorite Swix Cera F of all time. Disclaimer: I work for Swix and I race against Rob. Happy New Year. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Yes, the Helx must be dry.
For those in a hurry, we recommend using a rotocork. Using a rotocork you can spray on, rotocork, buff. Voila. Sounds like there are quite a few pure fluoro products to choose from. See you on the trails, Kurt! Rob --- Trukweaz wrote: ok here is my biased answer to Mitch. Although I am sure that Helx runs well in the right conitions. I would bet my life I could apply the new Swix FC1 Turbo in a shorter period of time before a race. As there is no drying time as with Helx. It is a sintered block and can be crayoned on, corked in and brushed out in a few minutes. I know, and i think Rob will vouch for this, that the Helx has to be VERY dry before you buff it, as the same is true with the new FC08L Liquid Cera F from Swix. The FC01S runs VERY well in a huge temperature range and is by far my favorite Swix Cera F of all time. Disclaimer: I work for Swix and I race against Rob. Happy New Year. ===== Rob Bradlee Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Since I'm sponsored by Pam Cooking LTD, my opinion may be
opinionated... Cerax was some strange stuff. It could work very well one day, and then two days later, after the high schoolers have turned the trail into boiler plate, it would be slow. (How can anything be slow on boiler plate?) Or you'd by flying along with screaming skis, hit a 5 ft of windblown snow, and the skis would slow to the point of almost taking you down. When it was fast, it was very fast. When it was slow, I couldn't figure out why. (E.g., wind blown snow on one day may be a problem, but windblown snow on another day was just fine. One guys skis would be fine, another's would be slow.) From my Cerax days, I like the idea of liquids, in that I always worry about cooking my skis with pure fluoro apps. You can either dump on the wax ($$), or use sparingly and regrind (more $$). But I don't think the wax techs are confident yet that the liquid fluoros will last 30-50 km. Maybe opinions will change as these products are on the market longer. Also, I bet that the liquid fluoros will last longer than corking in powders. If you're trying to choose a pure fluoro for old, warm snow, that's an easy snow condition (for pure flouros). When the snow is new or a bit colder is when I think there should be noticable differences between brands. Now this opinion is not supported by testing, just an opinion...on the internet...according to someone said so. Jay Wenner |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Toko Helx - Question for Rob B. | Bob Maswick | Nordic Skiing | 8 | March 9th 04 02:26 PM |
Official Toko view of Birkie | Rob Bradlee | Nordic Skiing | 18 | February 27th 04 09:44 PM |
Toko Iron temperature? | Matt Locker | Nordic Skiing | 16 | February 4th 04 02:50 AM |
Toko glider choice for cold temperature | SebB | Nordic Skiing | 13 | February 2nd 04 05:11 PM |
Toko HelX: Fluorine Telemore? | Rob Bradlee | Nordic Skiing | 1 | September 20th 03 10:51 PM |