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#1
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Help - I can't feel my toes!
I'm 33, brand new skier, 5'9", 180 pounds, street shoe 10.5 to 11,
slightly wide (can't wear Nikes). My feet pronate significantly (3.5 degrees left, 3 degrees right), which naturally means I have either flat feet or fallen arches (not sure how to tell which), and my legs are externally rotated. I also have an irritated sciatic nerve from a back injury last summer. I spent a weekend at Sunday River last year and had a blast. This Christmas, I went again, and after just a few hours my feet were killing me in the rental boots, so I decided to take the plunge and buy a pair. Buster Bean at the ski shop tried me in a few boots from Nordica, Technica, and I think Atomic before settling on a pair of size 27 Performa 7's. I skied a few runs in them, and went back to have them adjusted; another salesman added some SBS shims to help my pronation, which really helped my balance. This weekend I went to Sugarloaf, and within an hour of putting on the boots, my (nonexistent) arches were in agony, and my pinky and ring toes were numb. I went to the ski shop, which has won some sort of "best bootfitting" award from Ski magazine, and Russ spent about four hours with me, blowing out the toes, cutting the SBS shims better (they were curling), adding a heel shim, and heating the boots. I was still getting numb after 15 minutes or so in the store, but we figured it was time to try a few runs to loosen them up. So the next morning I went out, and while the arch pain was mostly gone, my toes were still getting numb after an hour or two. Back to the shop. I didn't feel the boots pressing anywhere except the ankle, so Russ ground the ankles. Went back out, still getting numb. Came back, and Russ was gone, so Ian helped me. We tried a few things, and finally, I asked - is it possible that the boots themselves are the wrong size? Sure enough, they were too loose; I should really be in a 26. They won't normally exchange boots from one ASC shop to another, but the manager was coming in the next morning and could do it. I decided to take advantage of the opportunity and upgrade to X-Wave 8's since I knew I'd outgrow the Performas rapidly. At first they were agony, but after swapping the footbeds for wintergreen Superfeet they were wonderful. Monday morning: Manager exchanges the boots for me. We put in the Superfeet and I hit the slopes for a few hours - sans SBS shims since they won't fit yet. Big improvement in control, but my outer toes are still numb. Back to the shop, where Ian blows out the toes, grinds the ankles, and heats the boots. Still numb. Adds back the heel shims temporarily, since outer numbness can be from pronation stressing the metatarsals. Still numb! I have to catch a bus to go home, so I don't get to hit the shop on my way off the slopes. I am really frustrated with this. What, if anything, can I do? Options include: - Just ski through the pain for 5-10 days before revisiting it. The boots are new and relatively stiff, and both the boots and footbeds will adjust to my feet. And once the boots expand, I can reinsert the SBS shims. - Try custom footbeds. Ian doesn't recommend this; he says that footbeds improve performance but diminish comfort compared to Superfeet since they're firmer. - Try orthopedic footbeds. Apparently there are some things doctors can do that ski shops aren't allowed to do in terms of shaping. Again, Ian recommends against. - Try a fancy shop with the scanning machine. Internet FAQs make these sound fairly common, but Russ said that they were only at "super- specialized" shops for high-performance skiing. - Something else... Help! Ideas? -- Jay Levitt | Wellesley, MA | Hi! Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going? http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket? |
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#2
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Jay Levitt wrote:
I'm 33, brand new skier, 5'9", 180 pounds, street shoe 10.5 to 11, slightly wide (can't wear Nikes). My feet pronate significantly (3.5 degrees left, 3 degrees right), which naturally means I have either flat feet or fallen arches (not sure how to tell which), and my legs are externally rotated. I also have an irritated sciatic nerve from a back injury last summer. I spent a weekend at Sunday River last year and had a blast. This Christmas, I went again, and after just a few hours my feet were killing me in the rental boots, so I decided to take the plunge and buy a pair. Buster Bean at the ski shop tried me in a few boots from Nordica, Technica, and I think Atomic before settling on a pair of size 27 Performa 7's. I skied a few runs in them, and went back to have them adjusted; another salesman added some SBS shims to help my pronation, which really helped my balance. This weekend I went to Sugarloaf, and within an hour of putting on the boots, my (nonexistent) arches were in agony, and my pinky and ring toes were numb. I went to the ski shop, which has won some sort of "best bootfitting" award from Ski magazine, and Russ spent about four hours with me, blowing out the toes, cutting the SBS shims better (they were curling), adding a heel shim, and heating the boots. I was still getting numb after 15 minutes or so in the store, but we figured it was time to try a few runs to loosen them up. So the next morning I went out, and while the arch pain was mostly gone, my toes were still getting numb after an hour or two. Back to the shop. I didn't feel the boots pressing anywhere except the ankle, so Russ ground the ankles. Went back out, still getting numb. Came back, and Russ was gone, so Ian helped me. We tried a few things, and finally, I asked - is it possible that the boots themselves are the wrong size? Sure enough, they were too loose; I should really be in a 26. They won't normally exchange boots from one ASC shop to another, but the manager was coming in the next morning and could do it. I decided to take advantage of the opportunity and upgrade to X-Wave 8's since I knew I'd outgrow the Performas rapidly. At first they were agony, but after swapping the footbeds for wintergreen Superfeet they were wonderful. Stock footbeds in boots are generally made to be replaced. I have used Superfeet in the past with some degree of comfort but still prefer custom foot beds. Read further down. Yes, X-Wave 8's WILL have a significant improvement in performance over the Performas. The 8's should also be stiff enough for the next several years of skiing which, as you guessed, the Performas simply wouldn't. Monday morning: Manager exchanges the boots for me. We put in the Superfeet and I hit the slopes for a few hours - sans SBS shims since they won't fit yet. Big improvement in control, but my outer toes are still numb. Back to the shop, where Ian blows out the toes, grinds the ankles, and heats the boots. Still numb. Adds back the heel shims temporarily, since outer numbness can be from pronation stressing the metatarsals. Still numb! I have to catch a bus to go home, so I don't get to hit the shop on my way off the slopes. Numbness in extremities may be due to pressure further up your foot/ ankle. Someone who REALLY knows what they are doing can diagnose and correct this. I am really frustrated with this. What, if anything, can I do? Options include: First, since you have upgraded and resized you boots, I have to assume that the shell fit is correct, then... - Just ski through the pain for 5-10 days before revisiting it. The boots are new and relatively stiff, and both the boots and footbeds will adjust to my feet. And once the boots expand, I can reinsert the SBS shims. Although the liner of the boots will pack out some during the life of the boot, plastic, since it's resilient, does not "break-in" like leather. IMO don't try to "tough it out". It's not worth the pain and you may cause some damage that will give pain even after the boot is fitting OK. Ask me, I know. Tried some boots which I KNEW were too narrow. Damage on the outside knuckle prevents me from wearing my favorite boots which fit right and make me use my OLD (3 years) boots that are really too loose. - Try custom footbeds. Ian doesn't recommend this; he says that footbeds improve performance but diminish comfort compared to Superfeet since they're firmer. Custom footbeds, as you might get from SureFoot (as I did) or another boot/foot specialty shop will NOT give diminished comfort compared to Superfeet footbeds. The improvement in fit will ADD to comfort. - Try orthopedic footbeds. Apparently there are some things doctors can do that ski shops aren't allowed to do in terms of shaping. Again, Ian recommends against. As I understand it, someone who is licensed to make "orthotics" or orthotic foot beds can correct some of the mis-shape in you feet, namely the flatness where custom foot beds only hold your feet to the shape they are most comfortable with. I've never had true orthotics in my boots, only in my walking shoes. Again, what I said about custom foot beds. - Try a fancy shop with the scanning machine. Internet FAQs make these sound fairly common, but Russ said that they were only at "super- specialized" shops for high-performance skiing. Clearly the shop you went to doesn't have a scanning machine, otherwise, "Russ" would be extolling its virtues. Right? AND if boot/foot shops were "super-specialized" for "high- performance skiing" there wouldn't be so many of them. Right? There are so many of them because they do a good job of making skiing comfortable for the large mass of general skiers. I've found two so far. One is SureFoot at Killington, but be aware that not all SureFoot stores (it's a chain) are created equal. And Tahoe Boot 'n Ski Works in South Lake Tahoe, CA. Now, there are truly "high-end" bootfitters. There is one in Aspen whose name escapes me and Greg Hoffman at Green Mountain Orthotics Lab http://www.gmolfoot.com/ who not only makes your boots fit correctly, he can shape your boots so that you/your legs align correctly with your skis. GMOL is right at the mountain at Stratton so that you actually ski with the fitter as the work progresses. I've had friends who have had Greg work on their boots but I have not felt the need. - Something else... That pretty much covers it. There are the options, see where you want to go. Monique on rec.skiing.alpine.moderated has had a fairly lengthy thread on her tales of woe and wails of toe about her boot fitting episodes. Curiously enough, she also bought X-Wave (8 I think) boots. There is a certain amount of work involved in getting boots to fit right and be comfortable, especially for people with feet like yours and mine. I'm not satisfied until I can wear my boots for 8 hours straight and get up the next morning and do it again. Help! Ideas? |
#3
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Jay Levitt wrote:
So the next morning I went out, and while the arch pain was mostly gone, my toes were still getting numb after an hour or two. Back to the shop. I didn't feel the boots pressing anywhere except the ankle, so Russ ground the ankles. Went back out, still getting numb. Came back, and Russ was gone, so Ian helped me. We tried a few things, and finally, I asked - is it possible that the boots themselves are the wrong size? Sure enough, they were too loose; I should really be in a 26. They won't normally exchange boots from one ASC shop to another, but the manager was coming in the next morning and could do it. I decided to take advantage of the opportunity and upgrade to X-Wave 8's since I knew I'd outgrow the Performas rapidly. At first they were agony, but after swapping the footbeds for wintergreen Superfeet they were wonderful. Jay, One question. Are you middle toes longer than your big toe? Dave |
#4
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Something doesn't make sense here because it sure sounds like your
boots are be too small. (US) mens size 10.5 = 28.5 (mondo size) (US) mens size 11 = 29 (mondo size) 26 (mondo size) = (US) mens size 8 Have a look he http://www.snowshack.com/skiboot-sizing.html I wear a (US) size 9 street shoe and a (mondo) size 27 ski boot. If I were you I'd try a (mondo) size 28.5... if they're too loose find a narrower fitting boot. Try measuring your feet yourself. Simply take a metric ruler and measure the length of your feet. The length of your foot (in centimetres) equals your boot size. e.g.- 28.5 centimetres = boot size 28.5 |
#5
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Jay,
I see from your sig that you are in Wellesley. I have a simple recommendation. Call Bob Smith's Wilderness House in Brookline and ask for an appointment with Gordon Hay. He is their bootfitter, and he is excellent. He does bootfitting for local college ski teams (Harvard and MIT, I believe). His knowledge of anatomy and foot mechanics is unsurpassed. He also works with a local sports podiatrist, Rick Cullen, who does podiatry for the Boston Celtics. Gordon can make you a real custom footbed, for starters. You shouldn't pay attention to people who tell you not to get a custom footbed - they're probably telling you that because they can't make them! A custom footbed will run you $100 or so, but it's worth it. You also shouldn't pay ANY attention to "best X" awards given out by Ski Magazine. Ski Magazine can kiss your ass. They are liars whose real constituency are ski resorts and ski companies, not skiiers. I have had EXACTLY the same problems you mention - agonizing toe and arch pain. This was even after Gordon had made me the foot bed. He told me that the reason was my Morton's toe - the longer middle toe than big toe. That's why I asked you about it. That not only causes pronation, but can also cause a neuroma and swelling. That's where the pain comes in - big time. I bet it's also worse when the weather's warm, right? Gordon told me that the underlying condition needed to be resolved by a podiatrist in my regular shoes, and there were limits to what boot adjustments alone could do. But he added extra bumps on the footbeds and blew out a bulge on the sides of my boots, to give the foot more room. He charged me nothing for this. I've felt better since. Better balance inside my boots (not weighting the front part of the foot so much) seems to have helped as well. Dave |
#6
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#8
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In article . com,
says... Something doesn't make sense here because it sure sounds like your boots are be too small. (US) mens size 10.5 = 28.5 (mondo size) (US) mens size 11 = 29 (mondo size) 26 (mondo size) = (US) mens size 8 I stepped onto a Nordica sizing board, and my big toe landed right on the 27 line, which is why I was probably put in a 27 in the first place. But Ian, the fitter at Sugarloaf, said he tends to fit down one full size for performance boots, two for racing. And when I wore the "proper" boot (27), I had to crank the buckles way down to stop my foot from moving, which isn't really a good thing, since it flexes the boot. I'm pretty confident 26 is a better size for me. -- Jay Levitt | Wellesley, MA | Hi! Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going? http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket? |
#9
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On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:49:42 -0500, Jay Levitt wrote
this crap: I'm 33, brand new skier, 5'9", 180 pounds, I am really frustrated with this. What, if anything, can I do? www.jennycraig.com My T-shirt says, "This shirt is the ultimate power in the universe." |
#10
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In article , says...
- Try custom footbeds. Ian doesn't recommend this; he says that footbeds improve performance but diminish comfort compared to Superfeet since they're firmer. Custom footbeds, as you might get from SureFoot (as I did) or another boot/foot specialty shop will NOT give diminished comfort compared to Superfeet footbeds. The improvement in fit will ADD to comfort. That's what I would think, too, and I was surprised.. maybe there are different types of custom insoles and he was speaking to the ones that the ASC shops install. Googling here, I did see a post from "Doug" on 3/7/03 that seemed to say Surefoot was useless, though it wasn't clear why... search Google Groups for "computer-image uncorrected-foot" to find it. - Try a fancy shop with the scanning machine. Internet FAQs make these sound fairly common, but Russ said that they were only at "super- specialized" shops for high-performance skiing. Clearly the shop you went to doesn't have a scanning machine, otherwise, "Russ" would be extolling its virtues. Right? Precisely... Also, he's been doing this for 30 years, and I get the idea he doesn't trust newfangled technology. I've seen that in a variety of trades; people like the old ways of doing things and trusting their "experience" vs. actual measurement. Me, I want to get a real-time 3D computer-enhanced holographic image of everything I can. I've found two so far. One is SureFoot at Killington, but be aware that not all SureFoot stores (it's a chain) are created equal. No problem - Killington is just a few hours away. Now, there are truly "high-end" bootfitters. There is one in Aspen whose name escapes me and Greg Hoffman at Green Mountain Orthotics Lab http://www.gmolfoot.com/ who not only makes your boots fit correctly, he can shape your boots so that you/your legs align correctly with your skis. GMOL is right at the mountain at Stratton Wowza. Stratton is 2.5 hours from me. I think it's time for a day trip. I've heard them mentioned here before, and only in glowing terms. Thanks for the advice. I'll give GMOL a call tomorrow. -- Jay Levitt | Wellesley, MA | Hi! Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going? http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket? |
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