Buyer's remorse

Amen to everything you said John OC. A lot of people have generously
offered to help me out and I've learned a ton and fixed my ski problem
to boot. Thanks Zach! I'm going to see if I can't find Zach prior to
the Birkie for flex testing on my new 192 stiffs. Thankfully shouldn't
need the borrowed ones, but wow, what a generous thing to offer.
Eric Chandler
Duluth, MN

(John O'Connell) wrote in message . com...
I know I'm stating the obvious but this is a perfect example of why
this newsgroup is so much fun. There was alot of interesting chatter
this week about fast ski/slow skis in very cold conditions. Then later
a number thoughful responses to Erics problem with his skis and then
Zach explaining in great detail some possible reasons and an elegent
solution, where else could you get the benefit of all this experience.

I learned a ton this week from this thread and I've been waxing skis
for races (although I'm starting to call them events....credit to Liz
Wagner...Greg Fangel's better half) for over 25 yrs.

Thanks

John OC (aka NordicNorm)







"Zachary Caldwell" wrote in message . ..
Eric - there's no question that you've got the wrong pair of skis. Fischer
makes some pretty stiff 182s, but nothing that can handle somebody your
size. The paper test isn't a great indicator because even a ski that is too
soft will have a residual pocket given the way these skis are built (with a
very hard bridge under the forward part of the foot. What you're not seeing
on the paper test is that at the rear of that full weight pocket - which is
probably about half way back on your foot, or a little further forward -
you've got a huge load building very quickly under the heel.

Your wax prep for the COL wasn't great but it surely isn't the whole
problem. Lots of people have mentioned that it's rare for a new ski to be
fast out of the box, but it's equally rare for a new ski to be THAT slow out
of the box. Fischer's factory grinds are the best in the industry (in my
opinion). If you've got a plus base ski then the structure wouldn't have
been "right", but it shouldn't have been that slow. The wrong structure can
sometimes acount for as much as 10-15% difference in ski speed. 25% is, in
my mind, out of range.

Another concern is that you've got an old pair of new skis. They've been
sitting around for at least 18 months with no wax on the bases. So they're
probably pretty crusty and dry. The quality of the base material at the
surface might be pretty grim. But again, I've never seen a "bad" Fischer
base and with some work you should be able to make these bases good.

I'm going to be at the Birkie with my truck containing my stone grinder and
flex tester, etc. My suggestion is this: come by the truck and we'll take a
look at the skis. No charge for an initial evaluation (this time!) We'll
start by look at them on the flex tester. I'm confident that will be enough
to rule them outas potential race skis. But we can also evaluate the base
material and structure if you like. I'll have some skis there in your size
which I'll have worked up for the race conditions. In fact, I've got a pair
in mind - the same generation as yours in a 192 which I fit a bit soft for a
190 pound friend of mine and need to find a new home for. If you haven't
come up with a better solution you're welcome to use them for the Birkie.
If, when we're done with all of that, there is some paying work I can do for
you, that's great. Otherwise I'll make you sign a pledge to say nice things
about me for the rest of time.

I'll be set-up at the Lenroot Lodge in Seeley - arriving late in the day
Monday, the 16th. Come by any time. And please drop me a note on e-mail to
let me know whether you plan to take me up on this.

Zach Caldwell
http://www.engineeredtuning.net/

802-345-5498 (mobile)



"Eric W. Chandler" wrote in message
...
I bought new Fischer Skatecut RCS's this year. They are the 2003's that
have
only the "speed tip" not the tail. I'm about 175-180 pounds and they are
182
cm long and theoretically the right flex for me via the shop that did the
paper
test on a metal surface. I'm suspicious since they are significantly
shorter
than my old Fischer RCS's I bought in 99.

My fitness isn't great, but it's better than last year. I skied 3:21 at
the
birkie last year. I just got back from the City of Lakes Loppet and I
skied
over 5 minutes per k and it took me 3 hours to go 35k. I had cleaned with
CH10,
3 times BP-88 with bronze and nylon brushing in between each layer, then
CH4,
then the CH3 Cold powder and CH3 again. Brushed with bronze and then
Nylon.
These are all the layers of wax I got into these new skis before that
race.
They were the slowest skis relative to the wave around me. My old Fischers
are
usually the fastest skis around me.

I went and got some Fibertex pads and have started swiping the skis with
that
too to try to speed them up.

What do I do?

Re-flex test them to see if they're the right length/stiffness for me?

Keep waxing to get layers into the ski and hope that they will speed up
over
time?

Remove the old NNN bindings from my old Fischers and put Pilot bindings on
them
so I can race on the old pair at the Birkie this year? ( My alpina boots
are
shot and will disintegrate soon and I upgraded to Pilot boots this year
along
with the new sticks)

I'm very frustrated because usually, even with poor fitness, I have great
skis
and usually finish somewhere above halfway in my age group. This COL
Loppet was
a death march disaster and my skis felt really slow. 513th of 650 people.
Ridiculous. I can always do better than 4' per k. Hell, I told my buddy to
meet
me at the finish at a 4' per k time because that was a disaster time
estimate.
5:09 per k? Absurd. And they seemed slow this afternoon with the correct
wax
and moderate temps (20F). I'm basically afraid of my new skis. Help.


Eric "Shmo" Chandler
Duluth, MN

Gene Goldenfeld wrote in message ...
"Sly D. Skeez" wrote:

Fischers (if they use Fischer) and the women ski 182s. If a pair of
women's skis are fast, they will hand that pair (of 182s) to a male
racer for his race. So they will both use the same skis. If the course
is firm, 182s should work, but longer skis would be a more universal
ski.

Wait a minute. If the skate were soft relative to a skier's weight and
the course hard, wouldn't it bottom out and be all over the place?

Yes, it would. But if you're on the World Cup, you have great balance,
and you'd rather ski a squirley ski that's very fast than a stable ski
that's just a bit slower. It's all about speed and screw stability.

Unless you've got a hefty woman and a light guy, I'd think this exchange
would work better on a softer course, such as falling snow. Please
straighten me out.

If you put a big guy on a soft course (like Husby on a 2001 Birkie
course), they're gonna be slow. If you put them on short skis, they'll
be slower. The World Cup courses often have a ton of snow, and they're
groomed like a downhill ski area (hard as a brick with some fluff on
top). So exchanging skis between women and men is not as much of an
issue since the course is firm.

Jay Wenner

"Sly D. Skeez" wrote:

be slower. The World Cup courses often have a ton of snow, and they're
groomed like a downhill ski area (hard as a brick with some fluff on
top). So exchanging skis between women and men is not as much of an
issue since the course is firm.

Sounds like the grooming of those courses (conditions permitting) is pro
tour golf courses. When the Solheim Cup was in Edina(MN), I couldn't
believe how much those fairways were like thin, smooth carpets. Nothing
like I played on in college events.

Gene

(Dell Todd) wrote in message om...


Also- the bronze brush - I have seen plenty of info now that says to
use the copper brush. This is the softest metal brush. I, like Brian
May, had a very slow ski in cold snow experience with my brass brush,
which raised hairs, and this may be true in your case.

Then Deno @ Outdoor Ventures in Hayward got me onto copper brushing.
Also got me into a swix T88 razor / metal scraper, and some fibertex
for hair trimming. The skatecuts sped up even in cold.

If you read the article with Chris Hall - USST head wax guru - in the
last SKIRACER magazine you will find that Chris uses a soft brass
brush more than any other brush! I think I will go with Chris on this
one. He also points out how important ski flex and distribution is to
fast skis. Also how good a job that bum Zach Caldwell does with
stonegrinding! It is s great article that all nordic ski racers should
enjoy.

Joe Ricci

If you read the article with Chris Hall - USST head wax guru - in the
last SKIRACER magazine you will find that Chris uses a soft brass
brush more than any other brush! I think I will go with Chris on this
one. He also points out how important ski flex and distribution is to
fast skis. Also how good a job that bum Zach Caldwell does with
stonegrinding! It is s great article that all nordic ski racers should
enjoy.

Joe Ricci

OK - SOFT brass brush MAY be OK. I know a standard bristle brass is
not OK for daily use without the attending daily base shaving. Perhaps
Chris Hall also says to shave daily ? I didnt see that article. Do as
you wish - sharing my own ski prep successes here.

I haven't actually seen a soft brass brush (though they must exist),
and the copper brushes are, according to Ian Harvey of TOKO USA as
quoted in the present issue of Master Skier, the softest metal
brushes. They do loads of work in removing wax.

Reliable Racing, Sierra Nordic and others sell a soft brass brush under
their own labels.

Dell Todd wrote:

I haven't actually seen a soft brass brush (though they must exist),
and the copper brushes are, according to Ian Harvey of TOKO USA as
quoted in the present issue of Master Skier, the softest metal
brushes. They do loads of work in removing wax.

I bought a pair of those same skis in the correct length and they were
dog slow after 5 coats of soft wax, brush and wax of the day. I
ironed in some very cold wax and scraped with a sharp scraper, waxed
still more and skied them a few more times and they are finally
getting faster, after maybe 10 waxings and a few hours of skiing. I
think the issue was the hairs on the bottom.

In my opinion, top line skis are a remarkable consumer product in
terms of the work the customer needs to do to get them to ski as they
should. I was amazed at how poorly a new pair of expensive skis
worked, then went back and read tips on this group about how I needed
to spend 4 hours working on them.

I think the issue was the hairs on the bottom.

Oddly enough, I saw an article out on the Master Skier website from the
02/03 season, by Rick Halling from Atomic. Dunno, seems to fit......:

Sometimes people tell me their new skis just don't seem to run as fast
as their old skis.
Regardless of the brand, we hear people at on-snow demos claim that
even by late season their new skis aren't gliding the way they should.
Many of these slow skis have never been waxed with a wax for extreme
cold.
Skis will never run fast if they do not have at least several coats of
extreme cold wax applied to them.
New skis arrive at the store with plenty of graphite dust in the pores
and coarse, microscopic hairs are left on the base from the original
grind.
Warm, low melting point, waxes have great penetration in a new base.
However, these warm waxes remain soft even after they dry.
When you scrape these warm waxes they are too soft to properly pull
off all the coarse hairs that are still on the base.
Waxes for extreme cold conditions become very hard once they dry. When
you scrape off this hard, cold wax it does an excellent job of pulling
off all the old coarse hairs left over from the grind.
Some companies refer to extreme cold wax applications as "a poor man's
stone grinding" because the cold waxes help to smooth the base.
Occasional applications of cold waxes are needed in order to eliminate
coarseness from a base.
The best way to make a ski fast is a lot of applications of a broad
range of waxes.
This means that if you are having a cold winter, be sure to wax
regularly with warm waxes for their lubrication and deep base
penetration along with the final coat of cold wax you give the ski.
This also means that if you are having a warm winter be sure to apply
occasional coats of very cold wax to eliminate coarseness from your
base.