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#21
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ride flat, without an edge.
"Beloved Leader" wrote Remember, the heaviest part wants to go first. In automotive terms, oversteer or understeer. The heavier end of the car will tend to aim at the outside of a curve. An important distinction is missing here. In your 911 example, what makes them helicopter out into the boonies is the driver lifting the throttle (or worse, hitting the brakes) in the middle of the turn. There are to "heavy" things he one is the physical heaviness of the car, and the other is how much dynamic pressure is at each end of the car. When you accelerate, rear wheels get more pressure (weight is transfered to the back) and thus more traction. Therefore when on ANY car regardless of its static weight distribution one slams the brakes in the middle of a turn it is likely to start oversteering. It's just much more severe in a 911 because lateral forces act on its rear more than on other cars. But I still have a problem making any sort of analogy with a snowboard here. |
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#22
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ride flat, without an edge.
My experience has been a bit different:
correct this tendency, the driver applies more effort to turn the steering wheel into the curve, thus bringing the car's path back into alignment with the road. The reaction is a normal one. Actually, if you're truely in understeer (ie, front wheels have gone to dynamic friction) changing the steering angle will do little to affect your line. You'll just continue to skid along the tangent line from the point where you lost static friction. What will work is to apply left foot breaking, which will cause the car to transition from understeer to oversteer or possibly start a 4 wheel drift. Then you'll have some ability to rotate the car or shape the skid. Try this in a frozen or sand parking lot sometime. to the outside of a curve. To correct this tendency, the driver has to make an extremely unnatural reaction - he turns the steering wheel so that the car aims away from the path of the curve. The result is often that the car is wrecked. I don't think the reaction is unnatural at all. When I was learing to drive on ice in the midwest, someone told me "steer into the skid" and it all seemed clear enough. What isn't clear about oversteer is that you have to control the front to back weight balance of the car to affect the line. For example, in a front wheel drive car to correct for oversteer you must _gas_ not brake. This is what I believe is an un-natural reaction, and is why most front wheel drive cars are biased to understeer. Understeer is also easier for other drivers to predict and avoid. And finally, it's very easy to overcorrect for oversteer and throw the car into a spin in the opposit rotation. By far the most "normal reaction" situation for skids is AWD. All you need tell someone is "if you skid, point where you want the car to go and gas." Once you gas, all 4 wheels go to dynamic friction. This starts a 4 wheel drift, which is neither oversteer or understeer, and is fairly easy to control without being aware of the car's weight balance. You haven't lived until you ride with someone who can drift a 5 gear hairpin in rally. |
#23
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ride flat, without an edge.
"Dmitry" wrote in message news:u_RXb.326699$na.480134@attbi_s04...
... In your 911 example, what makes them helicopter out into the boonies is the driver lifting the throttle (or worse, hitting the brakes) in the middle of the turn. Dot-com millionaires - a junkyard owner's best friends. |
#24
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ride flat, without an edge.
Can I totally disagree with you (and others) about riding flat?
IMHO one should *alwyas* ride on an edge. I agree with you that riding on an edge is safe, but it doesn't mean one should never ride flat. I would say after about 30km/hr I would never ride flat. OK, please tell me this mythical speed at which one no longer rides flat? If I'm looking to carry speed for a flat section, I'll keep my board flat unless I'm actively turning. I'm with Jeremiah on this one- I feel like I can ride flat at any speed I need to if the situation warrants it. You typically won't see me ride flat unless I know I'm going to need the extra speed to get through a flat or uphill section, since I enjoy being on edge more. I'm pretty sure I get going pretty fast in advance of an uphill section, riding flat - definitely faster than 30 kph. Now, I do avoid riding flat when I think there is any chance I might need to stop or change direction suddenly. The most dangerous part about riding flat IMHO is what happens when you stop riding flat. If you put the board on edge and carve out of it, no problem. But if something surprises you and you start to change direction without getting edge first, good night! You're doomed to catch an edge. Panic moves don't generally end well when you're flat and fast. Several people have mentioned good reasons why one would have trouble riding flat. We've mentioned inexperience, technique problems, boards that need tuning, and stance. I'd like to expand on the stance issue and also throw in one more - if you catch edges riding flat, it's possible that you should get a stiffer board. A heavier rider on a soft board is going to be able to twist it sufficiently that on the front end of the board, one edge is a little engaged, and on the back end of the board, the opposite edge is slightly engaged. That will generally end badly. It's easier to get into this situation than you think if you have a softer board that chatters at speed. Now back to stances. If you've been riding for a while and you have trouble riding flat, and it's not a technique problem (e.g., body too stiff) or an equipment problem (e.g., concave base), then maybe it's time to re-examine that stance. Sharkie has alredy talked about changing your angles so that your hips are in a comfortable neutral position. Another thing to check ais that your bindings are positioned well across the board. For example if your front binding is positioned a little more towards the toeside than your back binding is, it might throw you off just enough to cause problems. Also, if you've set your board up for powder with the bindings back, and forgotten to put everything back, that could throw you off too. Mike T |
#25
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ride flat, without an edge.
"Jeremiah Kristal" wrote in message
... OK, please tell me this mythical speed at which one no longer rides flat? If I'm looking to carry speed for a flat section, I'll keep my board flat unless I'm actively turning. I'm riding hard boots and a Donek Axis 178, so I suspect I go a bit faster than most snowboarders, and I'm also very aware of what my edges are doing. Riding with the board flat is a skill like anything else. It takes practice to learn, but can be done. Maybe we dont define "riding flat" the same. I will ride pretty much flat but keep pressure on one edge and carry my weight just slightly on that side. I'm not carving, my board is flat, but theres more pressure on one edge than the other. This way no edge catching, also no turning, and someone watching would probably say I'm riding flat even though I'm not. What I never do (unless I'm going slow enough that catching an edge can be corrected before I go down) is ride perfectly flat with my weight centered, not knowing which edge I'm on. Maybe its just me. |
#26
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ride flat, without an edge.
"Mike T" wrote in message ... Several people have mentioned good reasons why one would have trouble riding flat. We've mentioned inexperience, technique problems, boards that need tuning, and stance. I'd like to expand on the stance issue and also throw in one more - if you catch edges riding flat, it's possible that you should get a stiffer board. A heavier rider on a soft board is going to be able to twist it sufficiently that on the front end of the board, one edge is a little engaged, and on the back end of the board, the opposite edge is slightly engaged. That will generally end badly. It's easier to get into this situation than you think if you have a softer board that chatters at speed. Cheers, Mike. That sounds like exactly the problem I've been having. I've got a fairly flexible freestyle board, and yeah, it chatters at speed, and I catch edges riding flat. I'm gettig better at it, and I can tell when it's catching and jump out of the situation, but it can still be scary. Maybe it's time for a nice Donek... |
#27
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ride flat, without an edge.
and also throw in one more - if you catch edges riding flat, it's
possible that you should get a stiffer board. A heavier rider on a I think this is right on. I know when I've tried friend's boards that the softer the board, the lower my "this is safe" speed limit is. I think boots might matter too. Like with my weight my boots are stiff enough that pushing or pulling with my toes has very little affect on edge pressure. To change edging really I have to move my weight from the knees up. If my boots were so soft that I had to actively adjust my ankle to keep from pressuring an edge at the wrong moment, I definately think I wouldn't feel as safe bombing flat. I also totally agree with what Dimitry said: I'm much more comfortable skipping across the top of choppy stuff flat than edged. I'm pretty good at edging heelside over that stuff, since I can just let it pound my heels... toeside's my weak point right now. |
#28
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ride flat, without an edge.
Several people have mentioned good reasons why one would have trouble
riding flat. We've mentioned inexperience, technique problems, boards that need tuning, and stance. I'd like to expand on the stance issue and also throw in one more - if you catch edges riding flat, it's possible that you should get a stiffer board. A heavier rider on a soft board is going to be able to twist it sufficiently that on the front end of the board, one edge is a little engaged, and on the back end of the board, the opposite edge is slightly engaged. That will generally end badly. It's easier to get into this situation than you think if you have a softer board that chatters at speed. Cheers, Mike. That sounds like exactly the problem I've been having. I've got a fairly flexible freestyle board, and yeah, it chatters at speed, and I catch edges riding flat. I'm gettig better at it, and I can tell when it's catching and jump out of the situation, but it can still be scary. Maybe it's time for a nice Donek... Hey.. this is the majority of my owies.. usually on flatter terrain, a sudden edge catching and down I go. Come to think of it.. all my painful falls have been off the steeps... and always in some silly situation like Im trying to avoid a meat mogul or something... Most of my falls while actually on the hill are usually just loosing my edge, and sliding a bit. I ride a Salomon Regulate 168. I'm 6'4" 230+lbs. I thought this board was stiff.. Im really starting to see how a narrower board could be interesting. |
#29
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ride flat, without an edge.
Hey.. this is the majority of my owies.. usually on flatter terrain,
a sudden edge catching and down I go. -snip- Come to think of it.. all my painful falls have been off the steeps... Two things at work here! 1) Falls on steeps are often less painful, because you tend to roll or slide out rather than smack down. You're hitting the ground at an angle rather than dead-on. 2) Edge catches are less likely on steeps. In order to catch an edge you generally need to be skidding on your downhill edge. It's a lot harder to get intio that situation on a steep trail. I ride a Salomon Regulate 168. I'm 6'4" 230+lbs. I thought this board was stiff.. "Stiff" is all relative. What's "really stiff" to a 160 or even 180 pounder might be "soft" to a 230 pounder. -Mike T |
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