New Board Time, opinions sought….

Hi Neal,

What makes you sure they need all that particular stuff in order to
build what your son needs? Plus I'm pretty sure Sean has a press,
otherwise he wouldn't be building anything.


Thats what I figured, but I watched the layup video and never saw it go in.

At any rate, the boards everyone talks about here are the Inclines. Sean
has two more models coming out this year, one for freestyle, one for
freeriding which is more general-purpose than the Incline. They're not
on the website yet, just drop Sean an email and ask. I'm sure he'll be
happy to tell you about them.


I might do that. I have heard some negative sides to the Inclines
stiffness that might land my son into a tree. He really likes to rip
through trees, so the new board needs to be nimble, yet stable when told
to hold a line.

The park is just stuff to do while hanging with friends. Not that high
on the priority list.

Thanks,

Chris

Hi Mike,

Well I watched the Donek layup video and missed the press usage. It is
quite possible they did not put it in the video as the press use would
be implied after the board was layed up.

I too have learned not to always trust/buy everything a salesman is
trying to sell you, which makes this job even tougher.

There is a minus side to the Donek Incline. Some people off of this
forum have noted that it is not very nimble except at high speeds. This
could cost my son dearly as he navigates trees.

As you stated, not all boards are for everyone.

My sons priorities for a board would be:
Freeride trees, jumps and pops (High)
Bombing and carving (Medium)
Park, pipe, rails (Low)

Someone in another post mentioned that Donek might be introducing a
freeride board. It might be a possibility. Sure is hard to sort through
all this hype from the manufactures!

Thanks,

Chris

Mike T wrote:

Looks like Donek is a great stiff single purpose board.

But,
No torsion box(es).
No Carbon Stringers.
No Kevlar Stringers.
No tail/tip honeycomb.
No board press to push out excess resin.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but this tells me that at this time,
they cannot build a multi-faceted, multi-purpose board. Sort of a must
for my son.



whoops, hit "send" prematurely on that last one....


Christopher, don't believe everything you read in snowboard companies'
marketing literature


Torsion boxes and stringers and honeycomb inserts aren't necessary to build
a multi-faceted board although the companies that use those methods would
certainly have you think so. (Neither are quadratic sidecuts for that
matter )

IMHO, many of the boards with torsion boxes have a "metallic" feel to them.
Your son would feel that more acutely than I gievn that he's only a little
over half my weight.

Bottom line... any board is going to be better at some things than others.
The Donek Incline is better at carving and bombing than rails and butters.
It doesn't mean you can't do any freesrtle trick you want on it. You see
kids bombing on their Forums all the time, don't you? Same thing in
reverse.



-Mike T

P.S. Note suere where you got the one of about not having a press either -
they've got one.

May I suggest chaeking out www.lib-tech.com and their "Harc Carving
Freestyle" series of boards. I have ridden 2 different Emma Peels from this
line and they truly are "quiver killers".

Volkl and Head both make excellent snowboards. Head has some really good ideas
regarding bindings and board width.


(Jason Watkins) wrote in message . com...
But,
No torsion box(es).
No Carbon Stringers.
No Kevlar Stringers.
No tail/tip honeycomb.
No board press to push out excess resin.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but this tells me that at this time,
they cannot build a multi-faceted, multi-purpose board. Sort of a must
for my son.

So far Solomon, Ride (Prophet), Rossignol (Avalon, Maybe), and Burton
(Custom X) have some interesting offerings.

Don't sweat the marketing speak. First up, I *know* donek uses a
press, and prettymuch everyone must use some arrangement of press or
vacuum bagging. It's just a must if you want to build a board that
won't fall apart.

Also, prettymuch everyone uses fiberglass in boards. Carbon and Kevlar
fabrics offer some different characteristics, but they're not entirely
good. I know from the speaker design world that kevlar offers a lot of
dampening and very high strength. Great for subwoofers and bullet
resistant vests. But it could make for a very dead feeling board. I
suspect companies that scream "we have kevlar" probibly don't put
enough in the board to impact performance: the stuff is a little
expensive.

Carbon is monsterously stiff. Again, that has pluses and minuses.

The bottom line is, you can only take spec info so far. Things like
sidecut size and stiffness comparisons (ie, "it's like the burton
supermodel only a touch softer") are about as far as you can go.
Beyond that, I'd say you just gotta ride it. After all, even Yugo
could say "we use a specialized composit mono-body construction" all
day long. It'll still drive like crap.

Honestly, I think the best thing you could for your son is have him do
a demo day at the resort. Usually for the price of a demo you get to
swap boards several times. That way he can try some usual suspects and
tell you exactly what sort of stiffness and length he wants.

Christopher Cox wrote in message .. .
Looks like Donek is a great stiff single purpose board.

But,
No torsion box(es).
No Carbon Stringers.
No Kevlar Stringers.
No tail/tip honeycomb.
No board press to push out excess resin.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but this tells me that at this time,
they cannot build a multi-faceted, multi-purpose board. Sort of a must
for my son.

So far Solomon, Ride (Prophet), Rossignol (Avalon, Maybe), and Burton
(Custom X) have some interesting offerings.

Thanks for everyone's input so far.

Chris

Chris everything above can make a board a good board, but it's
important to know WHY these design choices were made and whether it
works - otherwise you are just a slave to marketing gimmick. In the
future, try to do more research before knowingly making ignorant
claims. A few quick points (all of which you could have found out if
you searched the web or past newsgroup postings):

1. Torsion boxes have been around for over a decade (from ski design).
Both them and torsion forks are basically designed to fine tune the
flex, balancing springiness with torsional stiffness (for better and
quicker energy response). Donek is very torsional rigid and is amazing
responsive... but it DOES tend to be less forgiving, where is what
torsional box/forks try to be both (any don't always succeed). The
drawback of torsional boxes is all that extra material adds weight,
which isn't great if your are a small/light snowboarder. Oxygen had
some pretty mediocre boards with torsional box/forkes. Neversummer
uses it in their Premier line, but those boards are heavy, the Evo
doesn't have it to be lighter, but it isn't stable enough for most
freeriding (park only board). I don't think Salomon or Burton use the
design at all (maybe the Carbon Beam is a tiny bit like a TBox).

2. Carbon/Kevlar stringers do the same thing. Give the board more pop
without adding too much weight. The Donek is not the most poppy board,
but it isn't bad at all. The stiffer Salomons like the Definition are
down right "dead" in terms of pop. The Burtons might be poppier... but
they use lightweight woods instead.

3. Tip/tail honeycomb justs saves weight by less than half a pound and
reduces the moment of inertia of the board every so slightly
(supposedly for easier spins).

4.Donek does use a press. It isn't in the video because it would be
really boring to watch an inanimate object do nothing for a long time.
Actually their press is much better than the balloon press that many
big brand companies use.

Ok, now back to the topic at hand. Forget even thinking about park
boards, you son won't need it starting out (he could still ride the
144 if he wanted to). I agree that tree riding is not the Incline's
strength. Now as other people have mentioned, you could consider
demoing the new Donek Phoenix or Twintip boards. If you are still not
into Donek I think Salomon makes a great board as well - I would
suggest the Amp or Forecast (that's the 450, right Mike?) but not the
Definition or Fastback. Those are my personal suggestions as I like
Donek and Salomon. I don't think the Custom X is going to be a good
board for you son though (too stiff and too expensive for a growing
boy)... maybe the Custom if you HAD to by a Burton board. Ride
Timeless is decent, but just not as good quality or value for your
money as Salomon or Donek in my opinion. Go for a medium length board
(150-152) with a medium flex.

There is a minus side to the Donek Incline. Some people off of this
forum have noted that it is not very nimble except at high speeds. This
could cost my son dearly as he navigates trees.

As you stated, not all boards are for everyone.

My sons priorities for a board would be:
Freeride trees, jumps and pops (High)
Bombing and carving (Medium)
Park, pipe, rails (Low)

Someone in another post mentioned that Donek might be introducing a
freeride board. It might be a possibility. Sure is hard to sort through
all this hype from the manufactures!

Hey, if you son REALLY like going in the trees a lot, may you could
get try the Burton Fish 150. It is made for the trees and is extremely
nimble, the tradeoff its that it isn't as stable at high speeds. I
just got one on Ebay to complement my Donek Incline as the two are
complete opposites. I haven't ridden it, so I can't give you a review
on it. I was thinking the funky design might be too much for a 12 year
old, but then again - it WAS designed by Terje Haakonsen from
Burton... so maybe that will make it cool enough. The best thing is
that is they are going on Ebay for $120-$150 (75-80% off). With that
type of price, you could afford to get you son two boards... one for
the trees and one for bombing and thereby avoid trying to get a
Jack-of-All-Trades board.

Hello Arvin,

First, I would like to thank you for the well thought out, informative
response.

I am not really pro or anti anything. You probably noticed me tempering
the Pro Donek groups suggestions with healthy skepticism, and the Burton
Bashing with a good look before dismissal.

You posted great information concerning different board technologies. It
really begs the question why someone has not pulled all the different
technologies together successfully. Perhaps it is/was to labor intensive
and costly to do so. A good for instance would be torsion boxes. I noted
from the manufactures illustrations they seem to be manufactured from a
heavier/stronger wood. This is an area where graphite fiber would shine.
A torsion box layed up on a 3D mold would end up being strong, ridged
and light.

Now add Kevlar close to the edges to dampen vibration while adding
strength. Carbon fiber stringers could add stability, liveness and pop.
Honeycomb Tip and Tail would make the board easier to spin.

And all of this would cost a fortune! But it could be a cool board....
Maybe....

Heck I don't know, and that is the problem. :-)

So, board companies press boards with the wood already layed up? I
imagined they would have pressed the composite material before adding
the wood to keep from compressing the wood itself. Speaks for the
strength of the wood.

Again, thanks for all the information. Well done.

Chris

Chris,

Adding all that stuff doesn't necessarily make a better board. Definitely
heavier, stronger and maybe even bulletproof though.

Honeycomb in the tip & tail make it lighter and helps with dampening but
doesn't help the spin. An overall lighter swing weight is what makes it
easier to spin or rather it takes less speed and strength to bring it
around.

Carbon Fiber and Kevlar have different properties including different
directional strengths. Carbon Fiber is lighter and has more pop than glass
or other top sheet material, has a high tensile strength but isn't very
tough. It tends to snap violently and should be used in conjunction with
glass for safety sake. Kevlar is a great material but a pain to work
with.since it always frays when you cut it. If you want fibers poking out
of the sidewall then sure use it. Also both are much more expensive than
standard materials but can be done on a custom.

Personally I'm not a fan of torsion boxes since that means weakening the
core by cutting a hole in it. Basically the core (the wood) is the heart
and soul of the snowboard. Different companies use different combinations
of woods and different layup techniques when putting them together all
dependent on the board the core is being used on. Hence our race boards are
much stiffer than our freestyle boards.

Back to the original topic...

You're looking for a board for your son who:
1. Loves bombin' the trees
2. Loves beating Dad down the hill
3. Likes to kick it in the park with his friends

Sounds likes my kind of riding. My main on snow "job" is teaching advanced
riders ages 13-18 that ride really hard with our time spent split between
the steeps and trees at Alpental and hitting the parks. I've ridden almost
every board on your list (I even have a Ride Prophet sitting in the closet)
and even a few more but I like my Donek the best. In the ten weeks (Sat &
Sun) of class with those kids I destroyed 2 burtons (one delam, one snapped
tail), turned the ride into a noodle and my Donek was the only one to make
it through the last half of the class and the end of season which included 2
road trips (Steven's and Hood).

Make a list of what are important factors to you i.e. quality, riding
ability, terrain, etc. then find what fits. If you need the specs for the
Phoenix let me know and I will send them to you.
--
Kevin Morrison
Donek Snowboards
Northwest Rep
206-227-3073


"Christopher Cox" wrote in message
...
Hello Arvin,

First, I would like to thank you for the well thought out, informative
response.

I am not really pro or anti anything. You probably noticed me tempering
the Pro Donek groups suggestions with healthy skepticism, and the Burton
Bashing with a good look before dismissal.

You posted great information concerning different board technologies. It
really begs the question why someone has not pulled all the different
technologies together successfully. Perhaps it is/was to labor intensive
and costly to do so. A good for instance would be torsion boxes. I noted
from the manufactures illustrations they seem to be manufactured from a
heavier/stronger wood. This is an area where graphite fiber would shine.
A torsion box layed up on a 3D mold would end up being strong, ridged
and light.

Now add Kevlar close to the edges to dampen vibration while adding
strength. Carbon fiber stringers could add stability, liveness and pop.
Honeycomb Tip and Tail would make the board easier to spin.

And all of this would cost a fortune! But it could be a cool board....
Maybe....

Heck I don't know, and that is the problem. :-)

So, board companies press boards with the wood already layed up? I
imagined they would have pressed the composite material before adding
the wood to keep from compressing the wood itself. Speaks for the
strength of the wood.

Again, thanks for all the information. Well done.

Chris

Hello Kevin,

Thanks for your reply.

First off, what Donek Freestyle board? I was leaning to a Donek Incline
155, but reviews of the board found it pretty stiff. Don't misunderstand
me, reviews on the net can be scarce and pretty poor, I am just seeking
information. I am leaning towards a mid-flex very stable board at this time.

I have some questions for you. I can gleen some important data from a
boarder with the same riding aspirations as my sons. What Donek board
are you riding now? What is your weight and height? What boot are you using?

My son is 100 lbs, 5'6". He is currently in football training which
means is is likely to gain 5 to 10 lbs before the snow hits if history
serves.

Thanks for your input,

Chris

I have some questions for you. I can gleen some important data from a
boarder with the same riding aspirations as my sons. What Donek board
are you riding now? What is your weight and height? What boot are you
using?


Chris,

I ride the Twin 161. I'm 6'1" and 195 lbs. I use Salamon boots since they
are the stiffest and have the smallest footprint (no toe drag). The Twin
has a softer flex than what you're looking for. For an incredibly stable
mid flex board I would go with the Phoenix 155. It has an 8 meter sidecut
and the nose, waist and tail measurements are as follows: 29.6 cm, 24.8 cm,
and 29.4 cm. I plan on picking up one of the larger models (163w) for
boardercross.


--
Kevin Morrison
Donek Snowboards
Northwest Rep
206-227-3073