ObSki: another run with flatboarding

On May 14, 11:44 am, Evojeesus wrote:
On May 14, 3:42 pm, taichiskiing
wrote:

On May 12, 4:58 pm, Evojeesus wrote:
I believe that when you can keep your upper-body and hands as still as
the masters (with or without poles). One should not have the need to
correct balance with superfluous hand-movements.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iubucBLb42o
also note that how the body moves straight down/straightlining.

You don't even turn there, except in the very beginning!

Your green MA shows. You don't see the skis ski/turn around the body?

Also in your other videoclips you seem to move your hands alot.

Or seeing the movements that were not there?

No comment,
IS

On May 15, 3:48 pm, taichiskiing
wrote:
On May 14, 11:44 am, Evojeesus wrote:
On May 14, 3:42 pm, taichiskiing
wrote:
On May 12, 4:58 pm, Evojeesus wrote:

I believe that when you can keep your upper-body and hands as still as
the masters (with or without poles). One should not have the need to
correct balance with superfluous hand-movements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iubucBLb42o
also note that how the body moves straight down/straightlining.

You don't even turn there, except in the very beginning!

Your green MA shows. You don't see the skis ski/turn around the body?

MA? I see your body going straight down the fall line, so you're not
turning, IMO.

Also in your other videoclips you seem to move your hands alot.

Or seeing the movements that were not there?

There are the clips of you in bumps, for example. By the way, where do
you base your claim that flatboarding can "do anything" on? Is there
someone who flatboards at the level of the professional skiers? If
not, isn't it way premature to claim that flatboarding can "do
anything"?

guess google lost my post, try again.

On May 15, 8:32 am, Evojeesus wrote:
On May 15, 3:48 pm, taichiskiing
wrote:

On May 14, 11:44 am, Evojeesus wrote:
On May 14, 3:42 pm, taichiskiing
wrote:
On May 12, 4:58 pm, Evojeesus wrote:
I believe that when you can keep your upper-body and hands as still as
the masters (with or without poles). One should not have the need to
correct balance with superfluous hand-movements.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iubucBLb42o
also note that how the body moves straight down/straightlining.
You don't even turn there, except in the very beginning!
Your green MA shows. You don't see the skis ski/turn around the body?

MA? I see your body going straight down the fall line, so you're not
turning, IMO.

Green is green? Actually, that's Wedeln in its purest/simplest form.


Also in your other videoclips you seem to move your hands alot.
Or seeing the movements that were not there?

There are the clips of you in bumps, for example.

Or just you "seeing the movements that were not there"? I don't "move"
my arms, nevertheless, the arms have the motions on their own--they
are "balance" as well as "counterweight."

By the way, where do
you base your claim that flatboarding can "do anything" on?

By experience.

Is there someone who flatboards at the level of the
professional skiers?

Downhill racers, ski jumpers, park/SkierX riders, etc.

If not, isn't it way premature to claim
that flatboarding can "do anything"?

What else that flatboarding cannot do?

'later,
IS

On May 16, 4:26 am, taichiskiing
wrote:
guess google lost my post, try again.

On May 15, 8:32 am, Evojeesus wrote:

Your green MA shows. You don't see the skis ski/turn around the body?

MA? I see your body going straight down the fall line, so you're not
turning, IMO.

Green is green? Actually, that's Wedeln in its purest/simplest form.

What does one need Wedeln for? Isn't it as outdated as freestyle
ballet?

Also in your other videoclips you seem to move your hands alot.
Or seeing the movements that were not there?

There are the clips of you in bumps, for example.

Or just you "seeing the movements that were not there"? I don't "move"
my arms, nevertheless, the arms have the motions on their own--they
are "balance" as well as "counterweight."

I see. I don't find that particularly esthetical but maybe you do.

By the way, where do
you base your claim that flatboarding can "do anything" on?

By experience.

I haven't seen any videos of skiers that prove it. It seems to work
great for snowboarders though, but even there I don't particularly
like hand movements from the "Swan Lake" if you know what I mean.

Is there someone who flatboards at the level of the
professional skiers?

Downhill racers, ski jumpers, park/SkierX riders, etc.

In what sense do those people "flatboard"?

If not, isn't it way premature to claim
that flatboarding can "do anything"?

What else that flatboarding cannot do?

Send us a video of you or someone else skiing something even remotely
interesting and challenging in your style and I might believe you.

On May 16, 12:27 am, Evojeesus wrote:
On May 16, 4:26 am, taichiskiing
wrote:

guess google lost my post, try again.
On May 15, 8:32 am, Evojeesus wrote:
Your green MA shows. You don't see the skis ski/turn around the body?
MA? I see your body going straight down the fall line, so you're not
turning, IMO.
Green is green? Actually, that's Wedeln in its purest/simplest form.

What does one need Wedeln for? Isn't it as outdated as freestyle
ballet?

Wedeln is a skill that links/skis a series short turns together, for
regular skiing speed control and turning, not a ballet technique, and
as you can see, a good technique is never outdated.


Also in your other videoclips you seem to move your hands alot.
Or seeing the movements that were not there?
There are the clips of you in bumps, for example.
Or just you "seeing the movements that were not there"? I don't "move"
my arms, nevertheless, the arms have the motions on their own--they
are "balance" as well as "counterweight."

I see. I don't find that particularly esthetical but maybe you do.

Ya, esthetics is subjective, and it ties up with your taste.


By the way, where do
you base your claim that flatboarding can "do anything" on?
By experience.

I haven't seen any videos of skiers that prove it. It seems to work
great for snowboarders though, but even there I don't particularly
like hand movements from the "Swan Lake" if you know what I mean.

"I don't particularly like..." is your preference, subjective if not
biased. Nevertheless, when two ways to do one thing and achieve the
same result, my take is that the way does with less equipment/
resource(energy)/effort, and etc., is better. Taichi Skiing is to use
the minimum effort to achieve a maximum result.


Is there someone who flatboards at the level of the
professional skiers?
Downhill racers, ski jumpers, park/SkierX riders, etc.

In what sense do those people "flatboard"?

Straightlining, banked turns, and in run for jumping, etc.


If not, isn't it way premature to claim
that flatboarding can "do anything"?
What else that flatboarding cannot do?

Send us a video of you or someone else skiing something even remotely
interesting and challenging in your style and I might believe you.

"Just another lame challenge on the 'net. If you don't see my
techniques over all those clips I provided, another video will not
help you there."

'later,
IS

On May 16, 2:49 pm, taichiskiing
wrote:
On May 16, 12:27 am, Evojeesus wrote:

Green is green? Actually, that's Wedeln in its purest/simplest form.

What does one need Wedeln for? Isn't it as outdated as freestyle
ballet?

Wedeln is a skill that links/skis a series short turns together, for
regular skiing speed control and turning, not a ballet technique, and
as you can see, a good technique is never outdated.

Right, but modern equipment would enable one to do more advanced
things if needed.

Or just you "seeing the movements that were not there"? I don't "move"
my arms, nevertheless, the arms have the motions on their own--they
are "balance" as well as "counterweight."

I see. I don't find that particularly esthetical but maybe you do.

Ya, esthetics is subjective, and it ties up with your taste.

I like skiing functional, minimalist and fast.

By the way, where do
you base your claim that flatboarding can "do anything" on?

By experience.

I haven't seen any videos of skiers that prove it. It seems to work
great for snowboarders though, but even there I don't particularly
like hand movements from the "Swan Lake" if you know what I mean.

"I don't particularly like..." is your preference, subjective if not
biased.

Or course it's subjective. I like functional and effective things on
the mountain.

Nevertheless, when two ways to do one thing and achieve the
same result, my take is that the way does with less equipment/
resource(energy)/effort, and etc., is better. Taichi Skiing is to use
the minimum effort to achieve a maximum result.

So far I have seen very little results, sorry.

Is there someone who flatboards at the level of the
professional skiers?

Downhill racers, ski jumpers, park/SkierX riders, etc.

In what sense do those people "flatboard"?

Straightlining, banked turns, and in run for jumping, etc.

What's a banked turn?

Send us a video of you or someone else skiing something even remotely
interesting and challenging in your style and I might believe you.

"Just another lame challenge on the 'net. If you don't see my
techniques over all those clips I provided, another video will not
help you there."

Hey, I don't especially like picking on other people's skiing ability
as I'm not perfect myself, but you seem to be asking for it. You also
teach your techniques to others, so you must be ready to accept
critique. My problem with the clips I see about 'flatboarding' is that
none of the people in the clips seem to be even near a level I would
call 'expert' - they seem to be advanced intermediates at most. The
skiing in the clips is so boring it makes me yawn! You are pulling the
claims that "flatboarding" can "do anything" out from your ass as the
things you show on you clips can only impress and entertain a relative
beginner. If you're really skiing as much every season as you claim,
have you considered that maybe your techniques prevent you from
progressing to a higher level?

taichiskiing wrote:
On May 16, 12:27 am, Evojeesus wrote:

What does one need Wedeln for? Isn't it as outdated as freestyle
ballet?

One needs Wedeln because it's a piece of history, because it's fun to
do, because it's showy, because it's esthetically pleasing, because it's
fun to do (did I repeat myself? - sorry.)

Wedeln is a skill that links/skis a series short turns together, for
regular skiing speed control and turning, not a ballet technique, and
as you can see, a good technique is never outdated.

However what you are doing toward the end of your video isn't classic
Wedeln - it's shortswing cross-under (as opposed to cross-over,) one of
the classic carved turn techniques wherein the ski is definitely NOT
flat on the snow.

CLIP

Straightlining

taichiskiing old boy, I wonder if you know there's an ancient and
established international word for what you call "straightlining?"
There's no need to invent a new term.
The word is *schussing*.
In a sentence: "Toni Matt *schussed* the headwall in the 1939 American
Inferno ski race down Tuckerman Ravine."
Go ahead, try the word out - you might like it.

Finally, there actually is a situation where serious skiers "flatboard"
- it's while tucking during Downhill racing. You want to ride an
absolutely flat ski, which is why the ski wanders all over the place.
Quite disconcerting at speed and a real skill which takes much practice.
Next time you're hitting 60mph+ get into a tight tuck and "flatboard."
Bill Johnson won his Olympic Downhill gold because he could ride a
flatter ski than the Austrians. However coaches don't tell the racers to
"flatboard," they say "flat ski."

Evojeesus wrote:
On May 16, 2:49 pm, taichiskiing
wrote:
On May 16, 12:27 am, Evojeesus wrote:

Green is green? Actually, that's Wedeln in its purest/simplest form.

What does one need Wedeln for? Isn't it as outdated as freestyle
ballet?

Wedeln is a skill that links/skis a series short turns together, for
regular skiing speed control and turning, not a ballet technique, and
as you can see, a good technique is never outdated.

Right, but modern equipment would enable one to do more advanced
things if needed.

Wedeln, as practiced by the Austrian instructors we had
around here ca.1963, was a grandstanding move with little
application beyond a moderate groomed slope. Not unlike
Stein's Mambo turns and, indeed, ballet.

Note that I'm not talking about short turns in general,
only Wedeln (wiggle) as practiced by Austrian ski instructors
in the 60's. Short turns of the 60's were made just like
any other parallel turns of the time. You began your turn
from a "platform" created by "ending" your previous turn,
make the turn and "end" it with a sharp edge set. The
difference between this and long turns was the amount you
strayed from the fall line, which for short turns, was not
much. This is not the way Wedeln was done.

Or just you "seeing the movements that were not there"? I don't "move"
my arms, nevertheless, the arms have the motions on their own--they
are "balance" as well as "counterweight."

I see. I don't find that particularly esthetical but maybe you do.

Ya, esthetics is subjective, and it ties up with your taste.

I like skiing functional, minimalist and fast.

Then you'd like skiing with Ichy. That's him for sure.

By the way, where do
you base your claim that flatboarding can "do anything" on?

By experience.

I haven't seen any videos of skiers that prove it. It seems to work
great for snowboarders though, but even there I don't particularly
like hand movements from the "Swan Lake" if you know what I mean.

"I don't particularly like..." is your preference, subjective if not
biased.

Or course it's subjective. I like functional and effective things on
the mountain.

Nevertheless, when two ways to do one thing and achieve the
same result, my take is that the way does with less equipment/
resource(energy)/effort, and etc., is better. Taichi Skiing is to use
the minimum effort to achieve a maximum result.

So far I have seen very little results, sorry.

Is there someone who flatboards at the level of the
professional skiers?

Downhill racers, ski jumpers, park/SkierX riders, etc.

In what sense do those people "flatboard"?

Straightlining, banked turns, and in run for jumping, etc.

What's a banked turn?

Body pretty much in line with skis instead of fall line.
Body facing direction of turn and tilted totally to the inside
of the turn. Works for high speed carving on groom. If edges
are sharp and cojones are big, it even works on "EasternFirm(tm)".

"Normal" turns require body facing the fall line (as much as
possible), shoulders down the hill (or outside the turn), knees
and hips up the hill (or inside the turn).

Send us a video of you or someone else skiing something even remotely
interesting and challenging in your style and I might believe you.

"Just another lame challenge on the 'net. If you don't see my
techniques over all those clips I provided, another video will not
help you there."

Hey, I don't especially like picking on other people's skiing ability
as I'm not perfect myself, but you seem to be asking for it. You also
teach your techniques to others, so you must be ready to accept
critique. My problem with the clips I see about 'flatboarding' is that
none of the people in the clips seem to be even near a level I would
call 'expert' - they seem to be advanced intermediates at most. The
skiing in the clips is so boring it makes me yawn! You are pulling the
claims that "flatboarding" can "do anything" out from your ass as the
things you show on you clips can only impress and entertain a relative
beginner. If you're really skiing as much every season as you claim,
have you considered that maybe your techniques prevent you from
progressing to a higher level?

I've skied with Ichin Shen, but I'm still not absolutely clear
what "flatboarding" means. He pretty much skis like the rest of us,
especially when the going gets tough. He makes good turns and strongly
edges (with very dull skis). He can ski icy bumps and pick yours
truly up when he gets crossed up in some small car-sized bumps.

He skis generally faster than I ski, but not by a lot. Modern technique
suggests that that both skis are both weighted with the "outside" ski
having just a bit more of the total, so that both skis edges can
be engaged in the turn. Ichy skis pretty much like that. He is
"over" his skis. His upper body "crosses over" when he turns (or his
legs "cross under" depending on POV).

He skis like the rest of us except that he doesn't use poles. What
I didn't see was the "Euro style" no-poles, high speed carving,
not unlike a hard-booted snowboarder. This is not his style at all.

When we got done our day of skiing, we decided that we both ski
pretty well and we didn't have much to teach each other.

What I did see in Ichy is a great joy in skiing. If he can teach
this he is 200 percent better as a teacher than most of the
instructors I've seen in my life.

Poles, no poles, poles get in the way of beginners especially
children. Timing moves that most of have been making with our hands
for as long as we've been skiing do NOT require poles. I can
demonstrate this when I'm carrying someone else's equipment down
the hill for patrol. I've got two pair of poles and a pair of
skis in my hands or over my shoulder and I'm riding block behind
the sled, making very short turns because the sled is going so
slow. No timing moves with my hands here.

Having said that, I've skied with poles for so long that I insist
on carrying them. They do have their uses.

In my view, Taichi is a mind-set rather than a physical technique.

Skiing technique is pretty much invariable because of the laws of
physics and the geometry built into skis. You must cause the
skis to do a certain thing to get a desired result. Period.
Because of the mechanics of the human body, there are a limited
number of moves available to get the ski to do a certain thing,
to get a desired result.

One of the oriental and/or zen philosophies can be embodied in
the statement, "Boil water, cook rice."

What this means is that whatever you are doing, do it totally.
If your task is to cook rice, make this your mental as well as
physical task. Take joy in the fact that the water will boil
and that the rice will cook in boiling water an your need for
food will be satisfied by this activity. Make it total.

Many of us have reached this in skiing. It happened quite by
chance. I know I take a great joy in the act of skiing. I am
hardly ever tired after I do a 9 hour day on the hill. I am
enervated by the activity. When I'm actually skiing, I do not
think of anything else. The act of skiing is pretty much
automatic.

If Ichy can teach this, more power to him. IMO, if people can
get the "joy" of the activity, the skill comes easier and faster.
No matter what the activity is.

Okay, so I've become and Ichy fan. The reasons are stated.
He occasionally has a bit of trouble with the language as he
wasn't born to English, and there is no harder language to learn
as a second language than English (except maybe Navajo).

I'd recommend a day skiing with him to anybody here. It was
fun. The only complaint I had was that Sierra at Tahoe was just
like skiing at my home base of Killington. There was "only"
3' of base, the trails are cut down through the trees, and,
that day, it was icy. Just like home, except that day at
home there was zero natural base and only a few inches of
manmade.

lal_truckee wrote:
taichiskiing wrote:
On May 16, 12:27 am, Evojeesus wrote:

What does one need Wedeln for? Isn't it as outdated as freestyle
ballet?

One needs Wedeln because it's a piece of history, because it's fun to
do, because it's showy, because it's esthetically pleasing, because it's
fun to do (did I repeat myself? - sorry.)

Wedeln is a skill that links/skis a series short turns together, for
regular skiing speed control and turning, not a ballet technique, and
as you can see, a good technique is never outdated.

However what you are doing toward the end of your video isn't classic
Wedeln - it's shortswing cross-under (as opposed to cross-over,) one of
the classic carved turn techniques wherein the ski is definitely NOT
flat on the snow.

CLIP

Straightlining

taichiskiing old boy, I wonder if you know there's an ancient and
established international word for what you call "straightlining?"
There's no need to invent a new term.
The word is *schussing*.
In a sentence: "Toni Matt *schussed* the headwall in the 1939 American
Inferno ski race down Tuckerman Ravine."
Go ahead, try the word out - you might like it.

Finally, there actually is a situation where serious skiers "flatboard"
- it's while tucking during Downhill racing. You want to ride an
absolutely flat ski, which is why the ski wanders all over the place.
Quite disconcerting at speed and a real skill which takes much practice.
Next time you're hitting 60mph+ get into a tight tuck and "flatboard."
Bill Johnson won his Olympic Downhill gold because he could ride a
flatter ski than the Austrians. However coaches don't tell the racers to
"flatboard," they say "flat ski."

****, it's May, it's raining, there are still patches of snow
on the hill and I'm already jonesing about skiing. As part of
that I wrote a frigging book about skiing with Ichy as I sit
here pretending to "work". The "book" by the way, is in an
earlier post. I also gave a more lengthy description of
Wedeln and classic short swing turns.

VtSkier wrote:
Evojeesus wrote:
On May 16, 2:49 pm, taichiskiing
wrote:
CLIP

What's a banked turn?

Body pretty much in line with skis instead of fall line.
Body facing direction of turn and tilted totally to the inside
of the turn. Works for high speed carving on groom. If edges
are sharp and cojones are big, it even works on "EasternFirm(tm)".

"Normal" turns require body facing the fall line (as much as
possible), shoulders down the hill (or outside the turn), knees
and hips up the hill (or inside the turn).

Big layouts are fun, but I can't do them on your "EasternFirm(tm)" or
even our California firm. But in big slush, whoopee.

But I bet what taichiskiing meant by "banking" was actually banked snow
as in those ski-cross the TV morons are selling the Gen X, Y, and Z kids
as real skiing. If the bank and the speed are perfect you could ride a
"flat" ski around the banked turn.

Reminds me of the old Pro Race format with repeated parallel runs which
resulted in big trenches. Where the World Cuppers would complain about
their start position and how torn up the course was late in the race,
the better Pros figured out that taking a wider track up on the trench
bank was a faster track.