A Snow and ski forum. SkiBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » SkiBanter forum » Skiing Newsgroups » Backcountry Skiing
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

What sort of layering for low temperatures?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old November 22nd 04, 10:00 PM
Gareth Crawshaw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What sort of layering for low temperatures?

Off to Norway over the new year for my first ever bit of xc skiing... been
told to expect average temperatures round -10C and have been looking for a
suitable jacket and clothing bits and pieces... I do a fair amount of
walking so I'm used to the whole layering thing, but not generally in
temperatures as low as -10 and below... Anyone here able to share
layering/clothing tips (esp the upper body) to cope with whatever Norway
might throw at me? (I'm going to Rondablikk if that's any help... I'm told
that extreme conditions can see it go down to -25)

Thanks,

Gareth


Ads
  #2  
Old November 23rd 04, 12:13 AM
Booker C. Bense
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article ,
Gareth Crawshaw wrote:
Off to Norway over the new year for my first ever bit of xc skiing... been
told to expect average temperatures round -10C and have been looking for a
suitable jacket and clothing bits and pieces... I do a fair amount of
walking so I'm used to the whole layering thing, but not generally in
temperatures as low as -10 and below... Anyone here able to share
layering/clothing tips (esp the upper body) to cope with whatever Norway
might throw at me? (I'm going to Rondablikk if that's any help... I'm told
that extreme conditions can see it go down to -25)


_ If you've got clothes that work well for you at temps above and
near freezing, then probably just a warm base layer[1] added to
that will be enough when you're active. A windproof layer is also
very important as when it's that cold, even the slightest breeze
will feel very chilly.

_ An insulating vest of either fleece or synthetic fill is also
very handy to have and something warm to put on when you stop ( a
down or heavy fleece jacket ) is handy. I'd say it's a must if
you're planning on full day travels away from shelter.

_ Don't forget that you'll need layers on your hands and maybe
your head and feet. A common novice mistake is to wear too many
socks and restrict circulation to your feet. Generally, keeping
the blood flowing is a better solution to keeping hands and feet
warm, rather than adding more insulation layers to just the hands
and feet. A hat and a vest will keep your feet warmer than an
extra pair of socks.

_ If it's really -25C, then I wouldn't recommend XC skiing unless
you have no other choice. Unless you've got experience and the
gear things get extremely unpleasant and potentially dangerous
much below -20C.

_ Booker C. Bense


[1]- Pick your polyester long underwear of choice...
Patagonia makes nice if expensive stuff. I like
the Norwegian Bryjne Fishnet stuff myself, but that is very
hard to find.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBQaKAwmTWTAjn5N/lAQErLAP+PrVZU4ma9wLrJS6mqjcpZfD4sw/1IsQ9
3R0ui9at3hf3/gA3CEIkFOVJeJufMn2twkAK7ibdpNcBGkcx8BzKkuFhn09oq7O X
VEzPdDgsd0WdpYN1gJrKkdD5Kbqvg73UUhsFvoWymwf1Ya1V7V yJOorCKxSH+Ltv
Ug49pjG1hd4=
=ey8F
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
  #3  
Old November 23rd 04, 12:52 AM
Gareth Crawshaw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Booker C. Bense"
bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Nov.22.04@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote
in message ...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article ,
Gareth Crawshaw wrote:
Off to Norway over the new year for my first ever bit of xc skiing... been
told to expect average temperatures round -10C and have been looking for a
suitable jacket and clothing bits and pieces... I do a fair amount of
walking so I'm used to the whole layering thing, but not generally in
temperatures as low as -10 and below... Anyone here able to share
layering/clothing tips (esp the upper body) to cope with whatever Norway
might throw at me? (I'm going to Rondablikk if that's any help... I'm told
that extreme conditions can see it go down to -25)


_ If you've got clothes that work well for you at temps above and
near freezing, then probably just a warm base layer[1] added to
that will be enough when you're active. A windproof layer is also
very important as when it's that cold, even the slightest breeze
will feel very chilly.

_ An insulating vest of either fleece or synthetic fill is also
very handy to have and something warm to put on when you stop ( a
down or heavy fleece jacket ) is handy. I'd say it's a must if
you're planning on full day travels away from shelter.


That's a new/interesting twist... I had been thinking of a layer system with
an Event shell (if that's the terms - a Rab Latok Alpine) but was concerned
about the lightness/wind-proofiness of it... Is there a benefit to be gained
from putting on a fleece over a "layering system" with such a shell?

[snip]

and feet. A hat and a vest will keep your feet warmer than an
extra pair of socks.


Beig a little bald on top (I'm only young!) hats have always featured
heavily in my walking!

_ If it's really -25C, then I wouldn't recommend XC skiing unless
you have no other choice. Unless you've got experience and the
gear things get extremely unpleasant and potentially dangerous
much below -20C.


I saw that olympic athletes tend to balk at about -18 to -20... I think I
might just listen to the advice of the more expeienced leading me there.
Hopefully they'll say "-12? Maybe another day" (or something!)

_ Booker C. Bense


[1]- Pick your polyester long underwear of choice...
Patagonia makes nice if expensive stuff. I like
the Norwegian Bryjne Fishnet stuff myself, but that is very
hard to find.


Thanks Booker...


  #4  
Old November 23rd 04, 03:51 AM
gr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Gareth Crawshaw wrote:
Off to Norway over the new year for my first ever bit of xc skiing... been
told to expect average temperatures round -10C and have been looking for a
suitable jacket and clothing bits and pieces... I do a fair amount of
walking so I'm used to the whole layering thing, but not generally in
temperatures as low as -10 and below... Anyone here able to share
layering/clothing tips (esp the upper body) to cope with whatever Norway
might throw at me? (I'm going to Rondablikk if that's any help... I'm told
that extreme conditions can see it go down to -25)

Thanks,

Gareth


One of the other posts mentioned brynje mesh underwear.
www.reliableracing.com has it in their current catalog (don't know if it
is on line though)
gr
  #5  
Old November 23rd 04, 10:09 AM
Peter Clinch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Gareth Crawshaw wrote:
"Booker C. Bense"


_ If you've got clothes that work well for you at temps above and
near freezing, then probably just a warm base layer[1] added to
that will be enough when you're active. A windproof layer is also
very important as when it's that cold, even the slightest breeze
will feel very chilly.


Agreed: that's what I used in Lake Louise with ambients down to around
-20C. As long as you were going you generated most of the heat needed,
only extraordinary problem was a /very/ cold face on downhill stretches!

That's a new/interesting twist... I had been thinking of a layer system with
an Event shell (if that's the terms - a Rab Latok Alpine) but was concerned
about the lightness/wind-proofiness of it...


It will be completely windproof, but it won't be as breathable as a
plain windtop in something like Pertex, and I'd opt for higher
breathability here as it means less moisture inside from sweat (plenty
of opportunity to make that, XC skiing!). There's no particular point
in having waterproofs for skiing trips like this, 'cause it ain't going
to rain! It wouldn't hurt to have it along if some bad weather comes in
(for the hood as much as anything), depending how exposed the area
you're skiing in is. If it's in forests I wouldn't bother, open country
where it might get claggy pop it in, and it's an extra layer for stops too.

I'll be off to Nordester in just under 3 weeks and I imagine the
conditions I'll be in will be similar. I'll take fleece tights for my
legs and have a pair of light overtrousers in the bag for extra
windproofing just in case, though I anticipate not using them. I rarely
get cold legs so don't use longjohns much, but it's quite common for
folks to put a pair under fleece tights.
On top I'll have a good base layer and a light jacket or smock like a
nylon shelled (i.e., windproofed) fleece, with a downie in the bag to
put on if I stop.

Is there a benefit to be gained
from putting on a fleece over a "layering system" with such a shell?


Not really... You'll be a bit warmer, but also more restricted and
heavier. You'd be better with something lighter under the windproof
layer where it will work more efficiently. But I'll restate that a
simpler windproof layer than a full waterproof jacket will probably be
better for the job in hand.

Beig a little bald on top (I'm only young!) hats have always featured
heavily in my walking!


I like to have a selection of hats and similar. A fleece balaclava is
very good as if it'll cover your face, which will get pretty cold on a
downhill schuss at subzero temperatures. Clear cyclists' glasses will
keep the cold air out of eyes too, and if you have interchangeable
lenses with an amber set those are good for contrast when there's lowish
light. I like Buffs because they'll double up with hats and can
function as scarves. I'll have a fleece balaclava, plain Buff, Polar
Buff and mountain cap with me and will vary their deployment with
conditions. You won't want much for a big uphill, quite possible
nothing to radiate excess heat, but everything coming down!

Gloves, again I like a selection. I usually ski in something light and
moderately windproof, but I keep a pair of big double mitts in the bag
just in case. Though windproof fleece gloves are great on the go, they
have a tendency to get moist during hard work and if they cool during a
break then it can be a beast to get them to warm up again, one reason I
like having a spare pair, or two, along with me.

For socks, I usually just wear a pair of good hiking socks, usually
Bridgedales. Inside a ski boot that should be enough, though again it's
worth having a dry, clean pair in the bag if you get sweaty and then cold.

One other good thing for warmth is a flask with a hot drink in!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  #6  
Old November 23rd 04, 07:36 PM
Gareth Crawshaw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...

[snip]

Thank you Pete for all that information (and for your time in writing
it!)... exactly everything I wanted to know but couldn't find!

Gareth...




  #7  
Old November 23rd 04, 08:49 PM
Booker C. Bense
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article ,
Gareth Crawshaw wrote:

"Booker C. Bense"
bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Nov.22.04@telemark .slac.stanford.edu wrote
in message ...

_ An insulating vest of either fleece or synthetic fill is also
very handy to have and something warm to put on when you stop ( a
down or heavy fleece jacket ) is handy. I'd say it's a must if
you're planning on full day travels away from shelter.


That's a new/interesting twist... I had been thinking of a layer system with
an Event shell (if that's the terms - a Rab Latok Alpine) but was concerned
about the lightness/wind-proofiness of it... Is there a benefit to be gained
from putting on a fleece over a "layering system" with such a shell?


_ Well, this is a bit controversial, but if you stick with
breathable windproof gear, rather than less breathable
waterproof gear, then I think putting a warm insulation layer
on as soon as you stop can be quite useful. In essense, it
uses your residual body heat to "bake dry" your inner layers.
All the layers need to be fairly breathable for this to
work. I picked the idea up from Mark Twight's book
"Extreme Alpinism[1]". I don't have any experience with Event
fabric to make comparisions. In any event, it's never
a bad idea to have an extra warm layer in your pack.


_ If it's really -25C, then I wouldn't recommend XC skiing unless
you have no other choice. Unless you've got experience and the
gear things get extremely unpleasant and potentially dangerous
much below -20C.


I saw that olympic athletes tend to balk at about -18 to -20... I think I
might just listen to the advice of the more expeienced leading me there.
Hopefully they'll say "-12? Maybe another day" (or something!)


_ -12C can be quite nice if it's not too windy, since it
generally means excellent snow conditions. Below that things
start to get very complicated as you have to start being
careful about exposing skin for very long and the snow
gets so cold that skis stop gliding.

_ Also, you might invest in some chemical handwarmer packs.
They are a very handy backup if you get cold hands or feet.

_ Booker C. Bense

[1]- I wouldn't recommend buying it or taking anything in it
as gospel, but if you see it in the bookstore read the
chapter on gear.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBQaOiT2TWTAjn5N/lAQHuCQP/YIEjq14cj4GA8CcUQnQRr4vffxVbNnm4
n4x1BizqnnFThJkh+/X+4WlSuaKJmZHFG88gL2Wh7TBPNZOGuA0R8vfNUC/4dXH5
MdgDp+bcaJUW46Njzjfebp4HJj9Dyu4cJOtd+hAVE+2c1WVrqj eYMD8NgGQ48LMR
2xorKkicgC4=
=jNCO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
  #8  
Old November 23rd 04, 10:57 PM
NC
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Gareth Crawshaw wrote:
"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...

[snip]

Thank you Pete for all that information (and for your time in writing
it!)... exactly everything I wanted to know but couldn't find!


I'd emphasis the gloves and hats. Have spares of each...

Hats can blow off, so one with some means of tieing on in wind is useful.
Ties can also keep it down over the ears. For very cold & windy weather I
carry a light silk balaclava, I wear it under a hat.

Gloves can get wet, and if wet then they get cold, they can also be lost in
snow. I always have a spare pair of gloves AND a pair of very big mittens.
The mittens are thick fleece with a waterproof shell; nearly useless for
gripping things (I can just manipulate a ski pole with them), but hands warm
up quickly if cold in them as the fingers can rub against each other and
curl into the warmer palm.
Hands/fingers can get very cold just after a food stop; I think its a
mixture of body cooling and resources directed to digest food. Its worth
setting off with thicker gloves immediately after a food break.

Make sure wrists can be kept warm with sleeves which come well down and
gloves which extend upwards ( it keeps hands warm).


- Nigel (several years of Norwegian skiing, but much less experience than
Pete C).


--
NC - Webmaster for http://www.2mm.org.uk/
Replies to newsgroup postings to the newsgroup please.


  #9  
Old November 23rd 04, 11:35 PM
Gareth Crawshaw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"NC" wrote in message ...
Gareth Crawshaw wrote:
"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...

[snip]

Thank you Pete for all that information (and for your time in writing
it!)... exactly everything I wanted to know but couldn't find!


I'd emphasis the gloves and hats. Have spares of each...

Hats can blow off, so one with some means of tieing on in wind is useful.
Ties can also keep it down over the ears. For very cold & windy weather I
carry a light silk balaclava, I wear it under a hat.


I've a trail of hats behind me in Scotland, and as someone who has watched
his hair disappearing over the 10 years, a second and third spare hat is
often carried - although I'm hoping not to meet the sort of winds in Norway
that I meet on a Scottish peak!

Gloves can get wet, and if wet then they get cold, they can also be lost
in snow. I always have a spare pair of gloves AND a pair of very big
mittens. The mittens are thick fleece with a waterproof shell; nearly
useless for gripping things (I can just manipulate a ski pole with them),
but hands warm up quickly if cold in them as the fingers can rub against
each other and curl into the warmer palm.


Thanks... hadn't been looking at combining them - had been thinking one or
the other, but I can see how that would work...

Hands/fingers can get very cold just after a food stop; I think its a
mixture of body cooling and resources directed to digest food. Its worth
setting off with thicker gloves immediately after a food break.

Make sure wrists can be kept warm with sleeves which come well down and
gloves which extend upwards ( it keeps hands warm).

- Nigel (several years of Norwegian skiing, but much less experience than
Pete C).

--
NC - Webmaster for http://www.2mm.org.uk/


Just had a nose around your website... Remembering the days I used to have a
great 00 layout and was awed by a friend's N guage (20 odd year ago now -
I've still got the track!), but 2mm? Excellent! Must take a huge amount of
patience to create the models!

Anyway, thanks for your hat and glove tips Nigel,

Gareth


  #10  
Old November 23rd 04, 11:56 PM
Gareth Crawshaw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Booker C. Bense"
bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Nov.23.04@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote
in message ...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article ,
Gareth Crawshaw wrote:

"Booker C. Bense"
bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Nov.22.04@telemar k.slac.stanford.edu wrote
in message ...

_ An insulating vest of either fleece or synthetic fill is also
very handy to have and something warm to put on when you stop ( a
down or heavy fleece jacket ) is handy. I'd say it's a must if
you're planning on full day travels away from shelter.


That's a new/interesting twist... I had been thinking of a layer system
with
an Event shell (if that's the terms - a Rab Latok Alpine) but was
concerned
about the lightness/wind-proofiness of it... Is there a benefit to be
gained
from putting on a fleece over a "layering system" with such a shell?


_ Well, this is a bit controversial, but if you stick with
breathable windproof gear, rather than less breathable
waterproof gear, then I think putting a warm insulation layer
on as soon as you stop can be quite useful. In essense, it
uses your residual body heat to "bake dry" your inner layers.
All the layers need to be fairly breathable for this to
work. I picked the idea up from Mark Twight's book
"Extreme Alpinism[1]". I don't have any experience with Event
fabric to make comparisions. In any event, it's never
a bad idea to have an extra warm layer in your pack.


_ If it's really -25C, then I wouldn't recommend XC skiing unless
you have no other choice. Unless you've got experience and the
gear things get extremely unpleasant and potentially dangerous
much below -20C.


I saw that olympic athletes tend to balk at about -18 to -20... I think I
might just listen to the advice of the more expeienced leading me there.
Hopefully they'll say "-12? Maybe another day" (or something!)


_ -12C can be quite nice if it's not too windy, since it
generally means excellent snow conditions. Below that things
start to get very complicated as you have to start being
careful about exposing skin for very long and the snow
gets so cold that skis stop gliding.

_ Also, you might invest in some chemical handwarmer packs.
They are a very handy backup if you get cold hands or feet.

_ Booker C. Bense

[1]- I wouldn't recommend buying it or taking anything in it
as gospel, but if you see it in the bookstore read the
chapter on gear.


After all that has been said, it seems that waterproof is out then... Hope I
can get a refund on that Rab - kinda misled myself looking for a jack of all
trades, something for the mountains as well...! Still, it is lightweight and
will get use, but the idea of not having to wear it in favour of some of the
things that you have suggested is appealing. Breathability is always
something that has been an issue with some of the trekking I've done in the
past - I don't suppose for a second that xc is going to be any less
demanding!

Thanks Booker,

Gareth


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
flow binding warning [email protected] Snowboarding 8 February 18th 04 04:04 PM
HELP PLEASE...CUSTOMER SERVICE FLOW Itchy Sanchez Snowboarding 0 December 11th 03 04:05 PM
Flow Bindings this year? Tavish Muldoon Snowboarding 4 December 2nd 03 03:20 AM
Flow Bindings - Mounting discs mr E Snowboarding 0 November 23rd 03 05:08 AM
Flow Bindings mr E Snowboarding 1 November 15th 03 07:32 AM


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SkiBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.