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#1
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T-2s versus T-3s, or are the "bigger boots for bigger skis" adherents too rigid?
Hello:
I ski the black T-3's with Atomic Tour Guide Superlights (now TM:10) and would like to upgrade my skis to the TM:22s. I'm wondering if to get full use of the TM:22's, I'd have to plan on upgrading my boots as well? I bought the T-3s (never having tele'd before) on the basis of some comments I read where some thought the push toward heavier boots had gone too far and might sometimes be unnecessary. Also, I'm used to skiing mostly on very lightweight ("racing") cross country gear. The T-3's have been great for me, but as I seek out steeper terrain and find myself in more varied conditions, there are certain conditions when I just have trouble making the skis work--I guess I'm assuming it's the skis, not the boots. I'd be very interested to hear others experiences? thanks, Jon |
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#2
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Big stiff boots make challenging down hill snow easier. There is no denying
it. I use first generation T1's (purple tongue) with thermolite liners. These babies are lighter than your T3's I believe. So I guess I fall somewhere in the middle. If it's pure downhill performance you're after... have you considered AT for the descent days and your current rig for touring? The question you have to answer is... how much of a weight compromise are you willing to make? Buy the skis. Use the T3's and see what you think. Then rent a pair of T2's. T2's with thermolite liners are pretty much in the league of T3's weight wise aren't they? I can't remember, but I don't remember T3's being all that light. DMT |
#3
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#4
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Dingus Milktoast wrote:
T2's with thermolite liners are pretty much in the league of T3's weight wise aren't they? I can't remember, but I don't remember T3's being all that light. I don't see that big difference between T2 and T3, weight wise. But the T2 is way way stiffer in the lower part - while it is still very comfortable in the upper part. A nearly perfect (and very light) allround teleboot. You can use, in my experience, the T2 also to ski fat skis. Only disadvantage: it's a "cold" boot. Some inner sole to isolate wouldn't that bad. Greetings, Ulrich -- reply to: uhausmannATbluemailDOTch |
#5
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Thanks, helpful observations.
In fact, after I did this post I checked out the weights and this year's T-2's weigh the same as the older T-3's, so flex has become the only differentiator. I was starting to think of an AT setup as a better way to segregate what I have available. A guide I spoke with had an interesting observation about weight v. downhill performance--he thinks you expend less energy than you think going up (even with heavy skis and boots) and more energy than you think going down if your struggling with an unstable setup and falling all the time, etc. ... Big stiff boots make challenging down hill snow easier. There is no denying it. I use first generation T1's (purple tongue) with thermolite liners. These babies are lighter than your T3's I believe. So I guess I fall somewhere in the middle. If it's pure downhill performance you're after... have you considered AT for the descent days and your current rig for touring? The question you have to answer is... how much of a weight compromise are you willing to make? Buy the skis. Use the T3's and see what you think. Then rent a pair of T2's. T2's with thermolite liners are pretty much in the league of T3's weight wise aren't they? I can't remember, but I don't remember T3's being all that light. DMT |
#6
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Jon wrote:
I was starting to think of an AT setup as a better way to segregate what I have available. A guide I spoke with had an interesting observation about weight v. downhill performance--he thinks you expend less energy than you think going up (even with heavy skis and boots) and more energy than you think going down if your struggling with an unstable setup and falling all the time, etc. Sure, that's up to you. But using for example this kind of thing: http://www.martin-eckart.gmxhome.de/ going uphill with teleequipment is a joke. Downhill is, obviously, a technical problem. Sure, when you're pretty stable in fixed heel mode and unstable in free heel mode, you'll spend a lot of energy. As you will do the other way around, if you're a better freeheeler (thank alpine skier). Greetings, Ulrich -- reply to: uhausmannATbluemailDOTch |
#7
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In article , Jon wrote: Hello: I ski the black T-3's with Atomic Tour Guide Superlights (now TM:10) and would like to upgrade my skis to the TM:22s. I'm wondering if to get full use of the TM:22's, I'd have to plan on upgrading my boots as well? _ Are you sure about the TM:22's? While they are a great ski for hard conditions, there are better skis for variable crud. What kind of conditions exactly are you having difficulties with and where do you ski? I bought the T-3s (never having tele'd before) on the basis of some comments I read where some thought the push toward heavier boots had gone too far and might sometimes be unnecessary. Also, I'm used to skiing mostly on very lightweight ("racing") cross country gear. The T-3's have been great for me, but as I seek out steeper terrain and find myself in more varied conditions, there are certain conditions when I just have trouble making the skis work--I guess I'm assuming it's the skis, not the boots. I'd be very interested to hear others experiences? _ What bindings are you using? There are lot's of people experimenting with using T3's with beefier bindings like the Hammerhead or Bishop Telebomber. _ In my experience, stiffer boots will help in varied conditions, but skis and bindings make a bigger difference. In some sense all 3 need to balance out, but I think it's a much better idea to put light boots on beefier skis than beefy boots on light skis. The better your technique, the lighter boot you can get away with. _ I'd definitely try it first and see what happens. BTW, a fair part of what makes beefy boots a bear to climb in is not the extra weight, but the extra effort required to flex them and the bindings. Pair a stiff boot with an "active" binding and it's a fair bit of work just to bend your foot. Kind of depressing to think about all that work you're putting into heating up plastic and springs. This is one place where AT setups have a clear advantage over most tele setups. _ Booker C. Bense -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBP+HbP2TWTAjn5N/lAQEgKwP+MVV+d2ME5U5RfeQXMpWwcNgaRrrsT4X/ 3YmnMDKmpMzZ/gf5yZxhLeUDQSaA6iUp4dKjpSMU/TMmaPr4055jSxx5qc1jblE4 TfE92DcMLgyRPTe93BinxxJGQn3/YmTlIueUaRlg6mcEJW0ihpW1W+0olUfHbVwL M010YMb5vvE= =MqVl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
#8
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So is there somewhere a website with an *illustrated* glossary or FAQ
that clarifies the ever more subtle distinctions between the ever expanding equipment-jargon terminology? (tele, randonee, AT, downhill, cross-country, back-country, etc, etc) |
#9
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[ lac.stanford.edu ]
_ I'd definitely try it first and see what happens. BTW, a fair part of what makes beefy boots a bear to climb in is not the extra weight, but the extra effort required to flex them and the bindings. Pair a stiff boot with an "active" binding and it's a fair bit of work just to bend your foot. Kind of depressing to think about all that work you're putting into heating up plastic and springs. This is one place where AT setups have a clear advantage over most tele setups. Is it really that much of a problem if you have good heel lifters? I have last year's Cobra with double lifters (two heights), and I cannot say I've thought of bending my T1's as that tiring when climbing. I notice it more on the flats. Martin -- "An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader." -Paul Graham, On Lisp |
#10
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In article , Martin Thornquist wrote: [ lac.stanford.edu ] _ I'd definitely try it first and see what happens. BTW, a fair part of what makes beefy boots a bear to climb in is not the extra weight, but the extra effort required to flex them and the bindings. Pair a stiff boot with an "active" binding and it's a fair bit of work just to bend your foot. Kind of depressing to think about all that work you're putting into heating up plastic and springs. This is one place where AT setups have a clear advantage over most tele setups. Is it really that much of a problem if you have good heel lifters? I have last year's Cobra with double lifters (two heights), and I cannot say I've thought of bending my T1's as that tiring when climbing. I notice it more on the flats. _ Try climbing with a pair of AT bindings. There's nothing like seeing for yourself. Or get the Silvretta Easy-go. Heel lifters help, but you still have to flex the toe of the boot and compress the springs on the binding. I have an old ('97) pair of T1's and one of the first pair of T-Races made ( Really stiff). The weight difference between them is not that big, particularly since I use the T-Race liner in the T1's. However, I get worked when climbing in the T-Race's with Superloops set up fairly stiff. When I switched to a less active binding[1], I noticed a big difference in the percieved effort to climb with my T-Races. This could all be in my head, I'm sure there is a placebo effect with new gear[2]. But hey, 90% of the game is what you think in your head anyway. If you think it will make you ski better, then probably it will.... _ Booker C. Bense [1]- Telebomber [2]- I spent money so it must be better, right? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBP+IBxWTWTAjn5N/lAQEaNQP/RyF5EbEHU1Jdjl/Y6lKi2s+0rmXC8MOP lU5Tz4K2f2PudL7ubvl7d6FvYPfAN0YKFUxf6jLU9kOEF9Za4d aM9k6xlntydy4Z zTVrjDf23fE+7JANQ3OjpP0cGn7EaScnp9hDq5/jbxkNudHA89eoQCi3FgX4EqQl IFPj+oKe32g= =RWGq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
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