Karhu Orions vs. Alpina Lite Terrain

Anybody have any input on which of these similarly sized, metal edged
backcountry skis might be better than the other? I'm in Minnesota, so
most of my BC skiing is flat to rolling. I need the edges for icy
conditions.

Ski safe,
Hans

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In article .com,
Trailpatrol wrote:
Anybody have any input on which of these similarly sized, metal edged
backcountry skis might be better than the other?

_ For what? They are both good skis, it's more a question of
what you want to get out of them.

I'm in Minnesota, so
most of my BC skiing is flat to rolling. I need the edges for icy
conditions.

_ The alpina is going to generally be better turning ski
than the Orion.

90-64-80 vs 85-70-80

_ I suspect the Orion will be better on the flats, it's much more
of a beefed up touring ski, rather than a slimmed down alpine
ski. If you are considering waxless, Karhu's generally have a
faster pattern than the Alpina and will likely be lighter. The
Alpina Lite Terrain is only light compared to the Alpina Cross
terrain, which is pretty much a skinny alpine ski with a waxless
base. If you are looking at Alpina Lite Terrain, you should
probably also check out the Atomic Sierra and Rainer skis. And if
you've got the $$$, I think the Fischer S-bounds skis are hard to
beat. I think the deciding factor between these skis would be
weight, price and camber.

_ Depending on exactly how much turning you plan to do, you
might want to look at 3/4 edge skis such as the Alpina Tracker.
While they are far from the best sticks for turning, they
save some weight, track nicely and have enough grab to
survive icy descents.

_ Also, some idea of what boots and bindings you plan to
use would be helpful in giving ski advice.

_ Booker C. Bense

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Actually, one of our patrollers has Fischer S-bounds and really likes
them. We use Berwin Backcountry Bindings so we can switch between
snowshoes and skis without changing boots. (Also you can use ultra-warm
Steger Mukluks with Berwins) I am replacing, or augmenting actually, a
pair of 2nd generation Trak Bushwackers since the Traks don't have
metal edges. They made a Bushwacker XT for a few years that had a
partial, but I missed out on them. I'll have to take a look at the
Alpina Tracker for that reason.

Thanks!
Hans

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In article .com,
Trailpatrol wrote:
Actually, one of our patrollers has Fischer S-bounds and really likes
them. We use Berwin Backcountry Bindings so we can switch between
snowshoes and skis without changing boots. (Also you can use ultra-warm
Steger Mukluks with Berwins) I am replacing, or augmenting actually, a
pair of 2nd generation Trak Bushwackers since the Traks don't have
metal edges. They made a Bushwacker XT for a few years that had a
partial, but I missed out on them. I'll have to take a look at the
Alpina Tracker for that reason.


_ You might also look at the Karhu Meta, if you want a
Bushwacker-like ski with edges and a universal binding.

http://tinyurl.com/5nzhv

_ I suspect they are dead slow on the flats though.

__ Booker C. bense



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"Trailpatrol" wrote:
Anybody have any input on which of these similarly sized, metal edged
backcountry skis might be better than the other? I'm in Minnesota, so
most of my BC skiing is flat to rolling. I need the edges for icy
conditions.

I think those 2 skis are pretty different and I question if either of
them is really good for flat to rolling terrain unless your goal is to
a) look for turns or b) use the skis as snowshoes in the woods without
any kick and glide.

I classify the Orion as a Catamount type ski after the older Catamount
that it replaced. These skis are sort of like sliding snowshoes and
have reputations of being great climbers in the no-wax version. More
of my thoughts on this type of ski is he
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/Dirt...html#SNOWSHOES

I classify the Lite Terrain as a Narrow Shaped ski. They will be
better turners but worse in terms of kick and glide. More of my
thoughts on this type of ski he
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/Dirt...#NARROW-SHAPED

My pref for kick and glide is for narrower skis with tips less than
80mm wide. Here is the link to my full page on the different skis.
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/Dirt...r/bc-skis.html

Hope this is helpful.




-- Dave
==============================================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts
without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, Politics, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
==============================================

Thanks for the insights. I have actually been using Bushwackers since
1983, initially with 3-pins, then with the Berwins since 1991 or so. A
couple years back, right before Karhu shut down the Trak line, they
re-introduced the Bushwacker (What I call "2nd Generation") and a
semi-edged version, the Bushwacker XT. For what our patrol does, the BW
has been great, and the Catamount/Orion is probably the closest I'll
find to what I am used too. I also use 65mm shovel Karhu 10th Mtn.
Tours with 3-pins and a full metal edge, with Karhu Convert boots in
more open areas. I do get decent glide out of the 2nd Generation BWs. I
had to borrow my old pair back (I gave them to a friend) when I broke a
binding, and was surprised at the big difference in performance.

BTW, I still have, and use my first pair of wooden Trak No-Wax skis;
over 30 years old!

Ski safe,
Hans

"Trailpatrol" wrote:
Thanks for the insights. I have actually been using Bushwackers since
1983, initially with 3-pins, then with the Berwins since 1991 or so. A
couple years back, right before Karhu shut down the Trak line, they
re-introduced the Bushwacker (What I call "2nd Generation") and a
semi-edged version, the Bushwacker XT. For what our patrol does, the BW
has been great, and the Catamount/Orion is probably the closest I'll
find to what I am used too.

Nod. For hacking about in the woods with Berwins, Orions would be my
first pick. I've been really, really impressed at how well my buds
with Catamounts climb on those things.

In general, I would definitely stick with positive patterns skis for
that sort of thing. I think that would eliminate the Alpinas.

Another ski to consider would be the newer Karhu Dorado. I've not seen
them up close (nor skied them) but if their no-wax pattern is a long
as the Orions are, then it might be a good bet to climb just as well
as the Orion with the added benifit of easier turning.




-- Dave
==============================================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts
without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, Politics, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
==============================================

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In article ,
pinnah wrote:
"Trailpatrol" wrote:
Thanks for the insights. I have actually been using Bushwackers since
1983, initially with 3-pins, then with the Berwins since 1991 or so. A
couple years back, right before Karhu shut down the Trak line, they
re-introduced the Bushwacker (What I call "2nd Generation") and a
semi-edged version, the Bushwacker XT. For what our patrol does, the BW
has been great, and the Catamount/Orion is probably the closest I'll
find to what I am used too.

Nod. For hacking about in the woods with Berwins, Orions would be my
first pick. I've been really, really impressed at how well my buds
with Catamounts climb on those things.

In general, I would definitely stick with positive patterns skis for
that sort of thing. I think that would eliminate the Alpinas.


_ Nope, the Alpina pattern is definitely postive and IMHO
climbs better than just about anything out there[1], which is
why it's pretty slow on the flats. The Fischer skis have a
negative pattern and the Karhu has a positive pattern, but
one that still glides reasonably well ( for a nowax ski ).

_ Personally, I don't think positive/negative should be the
main deciding factor. For two otherwise equal skis I would
pick the negative base, but I would not "rule out" a ski
because it had a positive base. Kicker skins are IMHO a
must for waxless skis and steeper terrain. They weigh
very little and are a handy backup for icy conditions,
where no waxless pattern base works well if at all.

_ Booker C. Bense

[1]- I'm pretty sure tests in Couloir and Backcountry have
this same opinion as well.

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"Booker C. Bense"
bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Dec.11.04@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote
in message ...
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[...]
_ You might also look at the Karhu Meta, if you want a
Bushwacker-like ski with edges and a universal binding.

http://tinyurl.com/5nzhv

Well, after much agonizing, and finding a few positive reviews of these, I
bought a pair. They should be here next week.

I'll still get something like the Fisher Boundless Crowns... but the truth
is, I do an awful lot of tramping on steep uphills, only to turn around and
go down through sparsely tree-covered slopes. My dream would be to climb a
few mountains around here on these things.