"Your Responsibility Code" Interpretation...Ugh

ant wrote:
IF someone's passing someone else, the onus is on them to complete the
manouvre safely.

I think too many snow users have a very deficient understanding of
the word "control" though.

I can't believe this got so much discussion, skier 2 is at fault. there can
be no argument. The 'Skiway code' or whatever it is called in your country
is as far as I am aware universal and specific.

It nearly happened to me last week, I was the uphill skier and the downhill
skier turned into my path and almost pushed me off the piste, but if he'd
hit me it would have been my fault.


--
Chris *:-)

Rule 1 - Me first
Rule 2 - Downhill Good, Uphill BAD!
Rule 3 - Skis at the bottom, Head at the top!

www.suffolkvikings.org.uk

Bob F wrote:
"VtSkier" wrote in message
And if he tries
to get away, I'd have his pants down around his
ankles (which isn't really that far if you've
been observing fashion lately).

And will that affect his riding?

No, but it will unnerve him enough so that
I can grab his pass.

ant wrote:
Marty wrote:
The uphill skier may be travelling only a
few mph faster than the downhill skier - well within the limits set by
the Yellow Jackets.

Most "speed control" people are volunteers, are there for show (the resort
cares about your safety etc etc blah blah), and can't ski very well at all.
There are exceptions, of course. I once met one who could ski quite well.
Never saw him actually get anyone for speeding though.

Common sense, not utter crap at all. I wish more people would
practice this "sort of" unwritten rule. Like I said, it would have
prevented this situation.

What would have prevented the situation is the uphill skiier having enough
control to ski safely. He hit the downhill skiier, plainly showing that he
was not in control and in fact, he sucked.

Having done speed control, I can say that chasing
someone down is a fools errand. The way you catch
speeders (!) is by the observe and catch in lift
line method.

The observer in the "slow" area radios the other
"cop" in the lift line with the "perp's" description
who then confronts the perp with whatever
consequences the area is promoting that day.

Our usual approach is a warning first time with
a marking of the ticket. Loss of privileges second.
No compromise on that second violation. Actually
the ski area says loss of privileges on the first
violation, but hey...

VtSkier wrote:
... make your own
line right next to the woods. No intermediate or
lower skier will ski next to the woods.

I gotta disagree with you there. I've seen countless numbers of
snowboarders who can't scrape their way down a blue run without falling
nine times who'll shoot off the piste into the trees without warning.
(I've seen plenty of beginner skiers do this too)

My approach is to never pass someone on the outside if it's close enough
that if they decide to head for the trees I'll have no choice but to go
there with them.

//Walt

First and foremost, it is always the uphill skiers responsibility to
avoid the downhill skier. End of story.

On Jan 7, 6:00*pm, Marty wrote:
From the OP:

5) A couple of yards before passing, Skier #1 makes a hard left turn
across the hill, perpendicular to the fall line, and makes contact
with Skier #2 on the left side of the run.

Why would anyone abruptly change line (down the fall line to across
the fall line) without taking a quick look uphill? *That's crazy.

It's one thing to be skiing down the fall line or even across the fall
line (any combination of turn shape) and get hit by somebody from
behind. *That IS the uphill skiers fault. *It's completely different
if you abruptly change your line from say the side of the hill to the
center coming across the fall line. *There is plenty of time to look
up and make sure somebody else is not coming down at a higher speed to
the place that you want to go. *You may cut into the path of a really
good skier that is about to overtake you and they MAY be able to miss
you. *Maybe not. *Why take the chance? *If the uphill skier is right
behind you (as the OP had stated), then there is a far greater chance
that you'll get hit - no matter the skill of the uphill skier. *Also,
speed is not a factor here. *The uphill skier may be travelling only a
few mph faster than the downhill skier - well within the limits set by
the Yellow Jackets. *The speed difference does not have to be great to
cause great harm in the collision and fall.

I'm not saying to look uphill with every turn. *Look uphill when
making a significant change in your line or your turn shape (from
narrow to wide).

Common sense, not utter crap at all. *I wish more people would
practice this "sort of" unwritten rule. *Like I said, it would have
prevented this situation.
--
Marty

The correct form for skiing is to keep focused on what is in front of
you. In other words, look downhill. Teaching begining skiers to look
uphill on every turn or even frequently is extreamly poor form which
will only lead to more falls and more accidents.

One thing I don't really see mentioned here is 'space, not speed'. A
phrase that should probably be added to the code. They have it on
signs around here. Why has nobody mentioned one of the key problems
here from the op?

5) A couple of yards before passing, Skier #1 makes a hard left turn

A couple of yards? If anyone who posts to this group frequently gets
within 6 feet of other skiers while they are skiing close to full
speed, they should consider another sport, maybe rugby.

The uphill skier is clearly at fault here just for allowing themselves
to get that close to another skier. When I am overtaking other skiers
at high speed, I find the spot on the trail where I can put the most
distance between myself and the person I'm overtaking and I give even
wider berth to kids. If I can't give at least 20 or 30 feet leeway on
all sides, then it's time to slow down, duck into the woods or find
another trail to ski on.

snoig

-- space not speed.

Walt wrote:
VtSkier wrote:

... make your own
line right next to the woods. No intermediate or
lower skier will ski next to the woods.


I gotta disagree with you there. I've seen countless numbers of
snowboarders who can't scrape their way down a blue run without falling
nine times who'll shoot off the piste into the trees without warning.
(I've seen plenty of beginner skiers do this too)

My approach is to never pass someone on the outside if it's close enough
that if they decide to head for the trees I'll have no choice but to go
there with them.

//Walt
I find there are a number of newbies that just wander down the trail,
some even seem to gravitate towards other people but a good skier can
always time to avoid, and some times it involves scrubbing off speed.
#2 was at fault and part was he thought he had more experience than he
really had.
In racing the car being over taken is to give way to the passing car if
they are not competing for the same race position. But it is still on
the passing driver to pass safely, But the point made to driver being
passed is drive so you can finish race, you gain more respect if you the
23rd place driver finishes the race than takes out the leader because he
passed you too closely.

I am heading to Mount Snow for a week this fridau if any one want to put
ion some turns let me know.

Alan sorry to hear about your knee, you will be doing a lot of waiting.

michael

drop the _ from the e-mail

On Jan 7, 7:04*pm, "Richard Henry" wrote:
"Marty" wrote in message

...
On Jan 7, 5:18 pm, wrote:

snip...

So, it seems that the Responsibility Code would indeed place blame for
the collision on Skier #2. However, it seems that there is an
unwritten "safety" code that says, if you are skiing defensively, like
driving (hopefully), you'll be aware of the environment all around you
(i.e. uphill, downhill, side, etc.).

Yes.

From the OP:

5) A couple of yards before passing, Skier #1 makes a hard left turn
across the hill, perpendicular to the fall line, and makes contact
with Skier #2 on the left side of the run.

Why would anyone abruptly change line (down the fall line to across
the fall line) without taking a quick look uphill? *That's crazy.

It's one thing to be skiing down the fall line or even across the fall
line (any combination of turn shape) and get hit by somebody from
behind. *That IS the uphill skiers fault. *It's completely different
if you abruptly change your line from say the side of the hill to the
center coming across the fall line. *There is plenty of time to look
up and make sure somebody else is not coming down at a higher speed to
the place that you want to go. *You may cut into the path of a really
good skier that is about to overtake you and they MAY be able to miss
you. *Maybe not. *Why take the chance? *If the uphill skier is right
behind you (as the OP had stated), then there is a far greater chance
that you'll get hit - no matter the skill of the uphill skier. *Also,
speed is not a factor here. *The uphill skier may be travelling only a
few mph faster than the downhill skier - well within the limits set by
the Yellow Jackets. *The speed difference does not have to be great to
cause great harm in the collision and fall.

I'm not saying to look uphill with every turn. *Look uphill when
making a significant change in your line or your turn shape (from
narrow to wide).

Common sense, not utter crap at all. *I wish more people would
practice this "sort of" unwritten rule. *Like I said, it would have
prevented this situation.
--

Utter crap. *#2 being in control would have prevented this situation.

My whole argument in this case really has nothing to do with what
skier #2 did or did not do according to the code. My argument is that
#1 IS an idiot. Even if not at fault by the code, skier #1 has a
broken ankle and is done for the season. Looking uphill to check the
situation before such a move would have prevented the accident.
Because I'm a safe skier that ALWAYS looks for lots of room to pass -
I'll never hit anyone - no matter what kind of dumbass move the
downhill skier may make. I won't even go until there is room to ski
the way I want to ski. But, as the downhill skier (skier #1), do you
want to take the chance that I'm skier #2 and make such a move without
a look up hill? Good luck with that and when you're in bed with a
broken ankle, back, or just plain dead - well, at leaste you won't be
at fault according to the code.

BTW, this morning I asked my 12 and 14 year old daughters what they
would do if they were skier #1 in this situation. They both said,
"Look up".

Utter common sense.
--
Marty
There is more to the code than the code

"Marty" wrote in message news:8ae3a1ce-4364-4370-aea1-

My whole argument in this case really has
nothing to do with what skier #2 did or did
not do according to the code. My argument is that
#1 IS an idiot.

The first statement is clearly false. The second may be true, but that does not
affect the fact that the first statement is false.

On Jan 7, 7:55*pm, "Norm" wrote:
"Marty" wrote in message news:96c76cf5-4864-4887-8628-

From the OP:

5) A couple of yards before passing, Skier #1 makes a hard left turn
across the hill, perpendicular to the fall line, and makes contact
with Skier #2 on the left side of the run.

Why would anyone abruptly change line (down the fall line to across
the fall line) without taking a quick look uphill? *That's crazy.

It's one thing to be skiing down the fall line or even across the fall
line (any combination of turn shape) and get hit by somebody from
behind. *That IS the uphill skiers fault. *It's completely different
if you abruptly change your line from say the side of the hill to the
center coming across the fall line. *There is plenty of time to look
up and make sure somebody else is not coming down at a higher speed to
the place that you want to go. *You may cut into the path of a really
good skier that is about to overtake you and they MAY be able to miss
you. *Maybe not. *Why take the chance? *If the uphill skier is right
behind you (as the OP had stated), then there is a far greater chance
that you'll get hit - no matter the skill of the uphill skier. *Also,
speed is not a factor here. *The uphill skier may be travelling only a
few mph faster than the downhill skier - well within the limits set by
the Yellow Jackets. *The speed difference does not have to be great to
cause great harm in the collision and fall.

I'm not saying to look uphill with every turn. *Look uphill when
making a significant change in your line or your turn shape (from
narrow to wide).

Common sense, not utter crap at all. *I wish more people would
practice this "sort of" unwritten rule. *Like I said, it would have
prevented this situation.

=======================

I wouldn't say your entirely wrong, Marty, but you are looking at it from
the point of view of an experienced, capable skier. If they gave everybody a
common sense test before they let them ski we would all still be riding
rickety fixed grip double chairs and packing brown bag lunches. *Whether
that would be a good or bad thing is a different thread.

People change direction erratically all the time. They do it on the ski hill
and they do it on the sidewalk.
If Skier 2 was not able to spot the change in direction in time to adjust
his own path then he was Too Close, or Too Fast, or Not In Sufficient
Control. It was stated Skier 1 was traveling slower than skier 2. Do you
think there is any likelihood skier 1 increased his speed by turning across
the hill? If Skier 2 was, lets say, 25 feet away from Skier 1 at the point
just above where he would have passed could Skier 1 have turned quickly
enough that he would have run directly into skier 2's path?
As the up hill skier it was Skier 1's responsibility to avoid the skier
below him. If there was not enough room to pick a path sufficiently far away
from Skier 1 then he should have been checking his speed before he became
close enough that Skier 1 was able to veer that quickly into his path. If
that meant he was unable to pass, then so be it. A safe and courteous skier
will adjust for conditions, one of which is how crowded the run is.

Any idea why your posts do not create a * *when people respond to them?
What do you post from?

Strange. I use Google groups - no news server. When I reply to a
post, I get the prefix. What are you using?
--
Marty

Marty wrote:

Strange. I use Google groups - no news server. When I reply to a
post, I get the prefix. What are you using?

Google groups doesn't always look uphill.
Try this:
http://www.individual.net/
10 EUR per year.
Well worth it.

-- Mike Treseler