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  #21  
Old March 30th 05, 02:09 PM
Gene Goldenfeld
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Exercise 1: Skate keeping your nongliding ski very close to the snow,
literally lifting it just enough to clear and no higher. This exercise
will force you to use your legs, as well as ankles, edges and such,
while helping you get the feel of staying on the ski longer.

Ken Roberts wrote:
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  #22  
Old March 30th 05, 10:03 PM
Andrew Lee
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Ken Roberts wrote:
Andrew Lee wrote
... try the ab driven leg recovery ...


Yes I did, and I like it. I haven't actually done any sort of side-by-side
comparison against my old way, because once I got into doing Andrew's new
thing I found I had no interest in going back.


Good! I knew it would work because I had the same experience. It was the
single most helpful tip I learned from this newsgroup a couple of years ago.

... try the weight over the front of the foot ...


Yes, this tip worked well for me too -- especially in the final phase of
my
leg-push, when I combined it with JanneG's and Jay "Bjorne" Wenner's idea
of
setting the next ski down low and smooth. I liked what happened when I
would
land the next ski early, before the end of previous leg-push -- then focus
the finish of that old push on the fore-foot. Felt like that helped me
direct that final push into the line of the new ski -- which when I was
climbing up a steep hill was aimed distinctly out to the side.
...
During the early or main phases of my leg-push, I found it hard to make
myself focus on my forefoot. Out of the few times I could talk myself into
it earlier in my push, at least once it seemed to bog my ski down and
almost
stop my glide -- because I was in soft snow. Maybe I need an additional
tip
about that.


I think you have it. I was thinking of the main push. It probably doesn't
happen at the beginning because if you recover your leg forward relative to
your center of mass, you necessarily have more weight farther back on that
foot, neutral I would say. Part of the weight might also be on the final
part of your push on the other foot's forefoot in V1. You'll probably
notice that you can stay on the front more in V2, V2A because you don't have
as large a step forward. Make adjustments by feel when skiing different
terrain and techniques.

You might notice that both the ab/hip movement and the weight forward/push
are similar to what you should be doing while classic skiing...



  #23  
Old April 1st 05, 02:52 AM
Jim Grau
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Great suggestion Gene. I find myself doing this on inline skates
rather naturally to get that pendulum motion feeling, but I never think
of doing it on snow. Something to work on for next season for sure.

Jim

Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
Exercise 1: Skate keeping your nongliding ski very close to the snow,
literally lifting it just enough to clear and no higher. This

exercise
will force you to use your legs, as well as ankles, edges and such,
while helping you get the feel of staying on the ski longer.

Ken Roberts wrote:


  #24  
Old April 1st 05, 02:43 PM
Gene Goldenfeld
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Ken Roberts wrote:

I don't understand all the biomechanics and physics of why smooth and low
and early landing is better than "stomp" (or if it actually is in all
situations). All I know is I kept on doing it for 2 hours in the toughest
hill-climbing situation I can remember, and it kept working for me. So much
thanks to JanneG and Jay Wenner.


You ask, Why not stomp? From a mechanical point of view, the idea in
skiing is to maximize propulsion and minimize drag. The outcome of
doing so effectively is to increase stride (or glide) length. You've
probably noticed on the trail what studies consistently show: glide
length is directly related to skier speed -- and longer gliders are
prettier to watch. Stomping adds no propulsion and kills the ski's
glide. What I and some others noted in your side no-pole video is that
you appeared to be running, as opposed to gliding. Another way to put
that is that to compensate for the lack of glide caused by using a
stepping technique, you chose to increase the frequency to a fast-step,
such that it appears to an observer as running. The exercises several
of us have suggested here have pointed you in the direction of focusing
on glide.

Gene
  #25  
Old April 1st 05, 08:35 PM
Ken Roberts
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Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
Skate keeping your nongliding ski very close to the snow,
literally lifting it just enough to clear and no higher.


Jim Grau wrote:
I find myself doing this on inline skates
rather naturally to get that pendulum motion feeling


Mystery:
Actually that's not what the best inline skate racers do in their leg
recovery. They distinctly lift the recovering skate up into the air (out
behind them in a way that's impossible with a ski). Canadian expert Barry
Publow specifically explains in his book on skate racing why that's
advantageous.

Yet somehow all that "wasted effort" of lift the leg and skate up, then the
fall down onto the ground -- does not get in the way of these elite
inline-skate-racers "staying on the skate longer", does not hinder their
smooth glide and push, nor get in the way of using their "legs, as well as
ankles", and such.

Ken

P.S. The grand master Chad sometimes even makes a sideways move (? reactive
force ?) with his recovering inline skate while it's up in the air.
___________________________________
Gene Goldenfield wrote
Exercise 1: Skate keeping your nongliding ski very close to
the snow, literally lifting it just enough to clear and no higher.
This exercise will force you to use your legs, as well as ankles,
edges and such, while helping you get the feel of staying on the ski

longer.



  #26  
Old April 1st 05, 09:39 PM
Marsh Jones
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Ken,

I can't speak for Jim's ability, but there's a huge difference between
most any of us and 'Chad'. I've stayed pretty much out of the technique
discussions, and planned to remain a lurker on this one too, but...

If I tried (and I have in the past) to imitate Chad/Publow/Parra, etc,
I'D HURT MYSELF!!! It takes so much practice, core strength, leg
strength, so much native ability and timing to skate like the elite
skaters do that it's an exercise in futility for most of us. The double
push is insanely powerful, but difficult to master and you have to be
extremely fit.

Same with skiing. I watch the WC folks, and also the best local skiers
and attempt to dissect what I see working... ...and then try to put it
into practice for myself. The biggest challenge is that I (and I think
most of us in the Wave 2/3 range) am not strong enough to translate the
techniques used effectively at the WC level into techniques that work
effectively at the sub-elite level. Watching WC skiers, there is so
much raw horsepower involved that it totally changes the physics - moves
that Kris Freeman makes that look extremely dynamic and maybe off-axis
would have me flailing wildly over my skis and going slow.
I've found I'm better off watching the elite women and trying to mimic
their moves. They're at least a little closer to my strength.

So where does that leave me/us? Keep doing what you are doing - it's
obviously working well for you, and I commend you for being brave enough
to hang out your technique for critique. I'm a proponent of video work,
and also just simple peer coaching. Gene Goldenfield and I ski together
fairly often, and he has pointed out several asymetry flaws for me - a
couple of which are things I can fix, and at least one that will require
surgery to change (years down the road, I hope). The biggest thing is
striving for improvement.

But for now, I've put the skis up and got the paddles down. The river is
open and I'm going paddling!

Marsh Jones
New Brighton, MN

Ken Roberts wrote:
Gene Goldenfeld wrote:

Skate keeping your nongliding ski very close to the snow,
literally lifting it just enough to clear and no higher.



Jim Grau wrote:

I find myself doing this on inline skates
rather naturally to get that pendulum motion feeling



Mystery:
Actually that's not what the best inline skate racers do in their leg
recovery. They distinctly lift the recovering skate up into the air (out
behind them in a way that's impossible with a ski). Canadian expert Barry
Publow specifically explains in his book on skate racing why that's
advantageous.

Yet somehow all that "wasted effort" of lift the leg and skate up, then the
fall down onto the ground -- does not get in the way of these elite
inline-skate-racers "staying on the skate longer", does not hinder their
smooth glide and push, nor get in the way of using their "legs, as well as
ankles", and such.

Ken

P.S. The grand master Chad sometimes even makes a sideways move (? reactive
force ?) with his recovering inline skate while it's up in the air.
___________________________________
Gene Goldenfield wrote

Exercise 1: Skate keeping your nongliding ski very close to
the snow, literally lifting it just enough to clear and no higher.
This exercise will force you to use your legs, as well as ankles,
edges and such, while helping you get the feel of staying on the ski


longer.



  #27  
Old April 1st 05, 09:56 PM
Jim Grau
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I agree Ken -- I'm thinking more of when I attempt to mimic XC
technique while on inline skates. The best purely inline skate
technique has the recovery foot's toe pointing downward and then moving
forward rather forcefully before it's set down, which you can't do very
well with 190-cm boards on your feet. I think you can do some of the
FORWARD motion though with skis just prior to set down -- that's one of
the things that all the elite skiers seem to do, especially with V2,
and it's probably what allows the ski to start gliding right away (as
opposed to the "stomp" people are talking about here).

Jim

  #28  
Old April 2nd 05, 03:20 AM
Gene Goldenfeld
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Marsh,

Thanks for the implicitly supportive words. I don't take offense at
Ken feeling more comfortable following Jay Wenner's suggestions than
mine (tho Janne??), but I do take objection to his quasi-trolling,
trying to play people off each other. In some people the distinction in
personality between trolling and not seems to be lost.

Something you said to me about ski Chad's poling technique, the wrist
flick, has remained in mind. I don't know what you saw, and I haven't
seen Chad in classical action, but I have been watching WC videos both
to figure out what you might be talking about, and because I haven't
been comfortable with my pole length(s). Then last month at my PSIA
level 2 exam, Llona Claussen was highly complimentary of my striding but
in looking at the video we noticed that my poling was relatively passive
(or at least not nearly as vigorous as it should be). Thus, even more,
that sent me back to the WC videos to try to figure out what they are
doing that is different.

My first impression was that the better WC skiers are flexing their
elbows even more than most of us do, something like skating. However,
that seems in most cases to be an illusion created from front view
camera angles. Rather, what I think is going on, and may have given the
idea of a wrist flick, is that they (most/best) are doing two things
that differ from the old style: 1)using more shoulder energy on the arm
return, and specifically, 2)moving (throwing or tossing) their forearm
up vigorously at the end of the return so as to get a higher hand
position (more vertical pole angle) and some momentum for a more
forceful pole plant. It's like the arms and legs are in a sense acting
independently, each being asked to offer as much force and energy as
possible, i.e., getting the most out of all the parts. This is
especially important on the kind of hilly courses they face because a
strong pole plant aids setting the wax and getting more propulsion from
the foot push off. Of course, as you suggest, keeping this up for some
distance requires a lot of hours of conditioning -- and younger parts.

I'd like to test this out on snow. Maybe next weekend up in
Sugarbush, if a trip to Greg's works out. Man, you flatlanders... To
me, ski season doesn't hardly start until the Birkie.

Gene G...[no i]d


Marsh Jones wrote:

Ken,

So where does that leave me/us? Keep doing what you are doing - it's
obviously working well for you, and I commend you for being brave enough
to hang out your technique for critique. I'm a proponent of video work,
and also just simple peer coaching. Gene Goldenfield and I ski together
fairly often, and he has pointed out several asymetry flaws for me - a
couple of which are things I can fix, and at least one that will require
surgery to change (years down the road, I hope). The biggest thing is
striving for improvement.

  #29  
Old April 2nd 05, 03:24 AM
Gene Goldenfeld
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Oh well, this was meant to be a private [offline] email, that I
neglected to readdress before hitting the send button. I mean no
offense, Janne; Jay is a top 50 Birkie skier.

Gene

Gene Goldenfeld wrote:

Marsh,

Thanks for the implicitly supportive words. I don't take offense at
Ken feeling more comfortable following Jay Wenner's suggestions than
mine (tho Janne??), but I do take objection to his quasi-trolling,
trying to play people off each other. In some people the distinction in
personality between trolling and not seems to be lost.

  #30  
Old April 2nd 05, 09:44 AM
John Forrest Tomlinson
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On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 21:20:22 -0600, Gene Goldenfeld
wrote:

Marsh,

Thanks for the implicitly supportive words. I don't take offense at
Ken feeling more comfortable following Jay Wenner's suggestions than
mine (tho Janne??), but I do take objection to his quasi-trolling,


If you think he's "quasi trolling", don't respond.

trying to play people off each other.


He's being intellectually rigorous. If you think he gets some
pleasure out of the fact that some people (I might be looking your
way...) can't handle being disagreed with, you're mistaken. The simple
solution is to not read his stuff.

JFT



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