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Kelowna fires



 
 
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  #11  
Old September 7th 03, 11:08 PM
Jay Tegeder
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Default Kelowna fires

Gene, you're totally wrong. Read some of my other posts on this
subject. You're a Berkely liberal from the fringe days of the 60s
aren't you? Your view is obviously tainted. You can put a
liberal/socialist spin on anything and you have managed to do it in
this instance.

Cut taxes, increase consumer purchasing power and investment. The
founding fathers would have kissed your view of taxation goodbye.
Maybe another tea party. Hey, I'm not a trust funder. I have to earn
what I make. in fact, I get up every day and go out into the world
with no pay guarantee. It's called commission sales. That's Straight
commission. I had to build up a territory by going to work everyday.
Unlike you, I know what the working people of the U.S. go through on a
daily basis. I'm there first hand getting it from the people I deal
with everyday. The majority of this newsgroup likely gets their
understanding of the working person from the liberal media. Get out of
your cloistered liberal existence and experience what really goes on
in the world. I mean that to most everyone on this newsgroup.

Jay Tegeder
"I faders spar for framtids segrar"



Gene Goldenfeld wrote in message ...
Jay Tegeder wrote:
Now, let's talk about the tax cuts by the Feds which so concern you.
They are not tax cuts. Repeat, they are not tax cuts. They, like here
in Minnesota, are just reductions in the spending increases. Repeat,


Actually, no, seen over a few years the recent reductions in federal taxes
are shifts in taxation from the federal government to the states and
localities. I mean, someone has to pay for education, roads, parks, public
health, welfare, etc. The question is how much will actually get shifted.
Bush and his conservative advisors/supporters hope that the end result of
federal tax cuts will not only be political benefit for themselves, but an
overall effect of cutting social and societal (education, roads, etc.)
expenditurs and programs. This is both ideological and economic (where
ideology comes from) - in a capitalist system all government expenditures
come out of business profits, however they derive to the gov't. Bush & Co.
represent corporate America with a vengeance, with a view akin to that
which dominated American political life in the late 19th/early 20th
century. They also know that it's much harder to raise taxes at a local
level, and such a battle will have to be fought over and over at each of
the 50 states and numerous localities, where big business money has
historically had much more influence.

should someone who earns more have to pay a higher percentage of his
income in taxes than someone who makes less. That doesn't sound very
American to me. Should someone who makes 21,000 per year be taxed at a
higher rate than someone who makes 20,000? Where do you draw the line
Jim? Who decides in your Howard Dean Socailist Utopia? The people who
make the most money create a lot more jobs than those who don't. Is
that good or bad in your world?


Excuse me, Jay, but the America you reside in has had a *progressive*
income tax system for quite a long time, first during and after the Civil
War, and then continuously from around 1913, when the 16th Amendment to the
Constitution allowing income taxes was ratified. In the last decade or
two, with the dominance of conservative economic and social policies, the
degree of prgrogressiveness has been considerably chipped away at, but even
now some pay 15% and some pay 28 or 35% or whatever it is.

Now, here's the kicker. If, as you say, government expenditures have been
going up relative to inflation, and the absolute and deduction-based tax
rates for the wealthier sections of the population have gone down, then it
would follow that the relative tax burden has shifted even more downward
into the middle and lower classes (that's definitely the case for user
taxes). If that's true, then your argument about what's "American" and not
is particularly self-defeating, since you are just one more of us on the
short end of the equation. To highlight this even more, if you check
income stats for the US, you'll find that except for a little blip at the
end of the 90s, average individual income has been falling steadily on an
inflation-adjusted basis since the early 1970s. Depending on family
configurations, that has meant relatively less and less money to pay more
taxes - for you, me, the others here, and most of the rest of the
population. Bringing it back to this newsgroup, less money left to buy
cross country skis and support ski resorts (something to consider in terms
of industry trends).
Note: This has been one of the most puzzling subject diversions I've ever
seen on rsn. We're a long way from Kelowna and the plight of Scott and his
neigbors. I mean, forest fires predate claims about global warming.

Gene

Ads
  #12  
Old September 8th 03, 12:01 AM
Rob Bradlee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Kelowna fires


funder. I have to earn
what I make. in fact, I get up every day and go out
into the world
with no pay guarantee. It's called commission sales.
That's Straight
commission. I had to build up a territory by going
to work everyday.
Unlike you, I know what the working people of the
U.S. go through on a
daily basis. I'm there first hand getting it from
the people I deal
with everyday. The majority of this newsgroup likely
gets their
understanding of the working person from the liberal
media. Get out of
your cloistered liberal existence and experience
what really goes on
in the world. I mean that to most everyone on this
newsgroup.


Okay, Jay, that's about enough. If you want to engage
in political rants find a political newsgroup. I
hustle my butt to find my own work too, and yet manage
to stay a liberal. But I do not want to argue
politics in this newsgroup, and I certainly think that
it entirely un-American to engage in ad hominem
attacks on people of differing views.

How about we all agree to keep the subject matter of
our postings to skiing, and nothing but skiing. If
someone throws in a side comment about global warming
we will all politely ignore it. Okay?

I ran a 17 mile trail race in NH today on a perfect
New England late summer day. This race marks the end
of trail racing season for me and the beginning of
SERIOUS ski training.

Rob Bradlee


=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training




  #13  
Old September 8th 03, 02:25 AM
Scott Elliot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Kelowna fires

To get back to the original topic:-

The forest fire at Kelowna continues to expand towards the east. A weather
front moved through bringing higher winds out of the west. This whipped the
front of the fire into class 5 and 6 status with spot fires starting up to
1.5 km ahead of the fire front. They had to withdraw firefighters from the
front for safety reasons, although they are still working to keep the fire
from moving north down the mountain into south eastern parts of Kelowna and
outlying communities. There are evacuation orders in place for those area
and for Idabel Lake with is much further to the east.

The news from the nordic skiing standpoint is that Idabel Lake is adjacent
to Hydraulic Lake and the thermal map released this morning showed the fire
was only about 3 to 4 kilometres from the west shore of Hydraulic Lake. The
Nordic XC Ski Club has their lodge and trail system to the east of Hydraulic
Lake. Hopefully they will be able to stop the fire at the lake and
McCulloch Road, although it has previously jumped smaller logging roads.

This afternoon there were six CL415 (Super Scooper) water bombers and a
Martin Mars water bomber assisting the 20 or so helicopters that have been
dropping water on the fire. There are also 650 firefighters and 200 pieces
of heavy equipment building fire guards on the flanks of the fire and
working on spot fires. None of this has any significant effect when the
wind comes up. Unfortunately the weather front did not bring any
significant amount of rain.

The Nordic Club has some nice trails and have recently upgraded their lodge.
Let's all hope they have a place to ski this winter.

Scott Elliot
http://www3.telus.net/selliot/


  #14  
Old September 8th 03, 02:32 AM
Jim Farrell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Kelowna fires

Jay Tegeder wrote:



.. Plus, you're making me
fight a two front war... I hate to do that...


More than two fronts, if you can still count.


Brian, who decides what car or vehicle is the right size? There are
SUVs out there that get better mileage than Jim Farrell's Mitsubishi
Diamante. I


I get 24 MPG (the new diamantes advertise only 18, now, progress in your
opinion, surely). What SUV claims anything close to that?

As for Jim Farrell, a good guy by the way, I can't let him get away
with the stuff he spews without answering.


You mean attacking, you pitbull.

  #15  
Old September 8th 03, 02:45 AM
Jim Farrell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Kelowna fires

Jay Tegeder wrote:



I have to disagree. What caused the disappearing winters of the 1890s
and 1930s? Everything goes in cycles regarding the weather. I predict
a big winter for the midwest by the way... Remember the hole in the
Ozone? It closed back up. They're rethinking the Ozone hole. That
could be a natural cycle too.


Now you're an expert climatologist, in addition to an economist,
soothsayer and expert on energy issues? You don't know the difference
between the ozone hole and global warming, I imagine. The more you
write the worse your case gets. CFC's destroyed the much of the O3
through catalisis to begin climatology 101. If you recall, CFC's were
removed from production in the 80's. Gee, I wonder if that helped a
little?

The greenhouse effect is very real (otherwise nighttime would bring on
inhospitable cold.) Too much of this good thing is what we risk by
continuing to pump more and more CO2 and other greenhouse gasses into
the atmosphere. No one truly knows the limit of sustainability this
planet can take. But we do know there is now 300% more CO2 in the
atmosphere than ever has been for a million yearas. No one knows for
sure if the change will be sudden and catastrophic (positive feedback)or
gradual and chronic. But the changes will come. Why mess with a good
thing. Earth is our only home. Can you improve it with change of
destroy it?

  #16  
Old September 8th 03, 02:54 AM
Mark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Kelowna fires

Dear Mssrs. Tegeder, Farrell, Goldenfeld, and whomever else has
responded to this thread:

Please stop. Take your arguments to a more appropriate newsgroup, or
respond to each other via private e-mail.

The vast majority of us here do not care to "listen in" on your
political rants, especially as un-friendly as you have made them (yes,
I'm making a very educated guess that I am in the majority). It's
boring enough that we have to read about what parts you put on your
bikes, or what incredible workout you did yesterday. Please think
about what you are posting to the world in a cross country skiing
newsgroup.

Thank you,

Mark

(Jay Tegeder) wrote in message . com...
It would be nice if someone was on my side once in awhile. However, I
think a lot of people who think like me are afraid to speak up because
of the ridicule they might get from people who don't understand the
whole picture.

  #17  
Old September 8th 03, 03:06 AM
Jim Farrell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Kelowna fires

Jay Tegeder wrote:
It would be nice if someone was on my side once in awhile. However, I
think a lot of people who think like me are afraid to speak up because
of the ridicule they might get from people who don't understand the
whole picture.


I think you use a rather 'liberal' definition of the word 'think.' You
repeat idiocies from people who tell you things you like to hear. Just
tune into your favorite hate radio station and there are a plethora of
ignoramuses regurgitating the same tired out crap you are repeating
here. It ain't a liberal media in this country, quiet the contrary.
Only a completely pap swallowing non thinker could repeat the lie you
find over and over again in your so called liberal media. Where else
did the non original thinker get this idea if not from the generally
conservative media. There is nothing new original nor creative about
what you write. You didn't understand the first thing about the logical
fallacies you engage in because you are unable to intellectually or
honestly look at the self contradictory BS you parrot.

The only thing that stops other stupid conservatives from jumping into
the fray with you is an inability to either put a sentence together or
to support your screed (even if some might agree with your general
agenda and be a hell of a lot smarter than we are, they couldn't support
your specific idiocy, even in the name of propping up a floundering
fellow conservative.) You are alone simply because you have made your
bed and must lie in it.

Take a break from this, let it all pass, like water off a duck's back.
Pretend a little humility when you engage others in person or in he NG,
and think about the offensiveness of what you write. Don't marginalise
Gene, don't try to tell me about science, or my personal politics, and
don't dismiss judgement of the fallacies that are the bread and butter
of your 'arguments.' There is no logic in any of it. Try another radio
station once in a while, expand your horizons. Read a little even, you
might just learn something if you can quiet your ever ready self
defeating comebacks.


  #18  
Old September 8th 03, 03:12 AM
Jim Farrell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Kelowna fires

Let's kill this off topic ramble right now. If you have the balls to
discuss these things over email or in person, without running off and
hiding like the last time you got over your head with me I am willing,
but you've gone
a little too far, below the belt, once again on this NG. Show an
ability to give and take (rather than firing a broadside and then
cutting off all discussion --- a real chicken**** way of going about
things if you ask me.) You have my address. I have forgotten (at your
request) your super sectret hidden address you use to hide from those
you have (admittedly) flamed on numerous newsgroups.

Misrepresentation and ad hominem attacks seem to be well in keeping
with the Roves and Ashcrofts you likely admire. I'll have to call you
on your attacks and lies, but spare the newsgroup the foolishness of a
public re reply. I don't even care for your empty apologies anymore.
Unforgivable, are your excesses.

  #19  
Old September 8th 03, 11:29 AM
Jay Tegeder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Kelowna fires

Okay. Okay... I'll stop the so called ad hominen attacks... I've
learned I'm a chicken**** according to Jim Farrell. I've learned I'm
the one who started the political attacks even though Farrell did
that. I've learned taxing SUVs and other luxury items is a good thing.
Plus, I've learned a lot of people like to go with "Mr Tegeder"
instead of Jay when they disagree with me. Also, I guess I'm the one
on the political rant even though tons of others have participated in
this non ng discussion. I've found out who my friends are. I don't
mean everyone who's disagreed with me. Just the ones with the personal
attacks.

As a result, I promise to:

1) Not respond when provoked on this newsgroup. In other words, rant
about global warming, George Bush etc. Although, they are not related
to this newsgroup.

2) Stick only to ski related topics

3) Do the American thing and punch out those who have been complete
jerks to me. I'll even punch out myself if you think that is
appropriate...


Jay Tegeder
p.s. I'll be signing up with the Earth Liberation Front today...

(Rob Bradlee) wrote in message oo.com...
funder. I have to earn
what I make. in fact, I get up every day and go out
into the world
with no pay guarantee. It's called commission sales.
That's Straight
commission. I had to build up a territory by going
to work everyday.
Unlike you, I know what the working people of the
U.S. go through on a
daily basis. I'm there first hand getting it from
the people I deal
with everyday. The majority of this newsgroup likely
gets their
understanding of the working person from the liberal
media. Get out of
your cloistered liberal existence and experience
what really goes on
in the world. I mean that to most everyone on this
newsgroup.


Okay, Jay, that's about enough. If you want to engage
in political rants find a political newsgroup. I
hustle my butt to find my own work too, and yet manage
to stay a liberal. But I do not want to argue
politics in this newsgroup, and I certainly think that
it entirely un-American to engage in ad hominem
attacks on people of differing views.

How about we all agree to keep the subject matter of
our postings to skiing, and nothing but skiing. If
someone throws in a side comment about global warming
we will all politely ignore it. Okay?

I ran a 17 mile trail race in NH today on a perfect
New England late summer day. This race marks the end
of trail racing season for me and the beginning of
SERIOUS ski training.

Rob Bradlee


=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training

  #20  
Old September 8th 03, 03:09 PM
Justin F. Knotzke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Kelowna fires

quote who= Jay Tegeder /:
Gene, you're totally wrong. Read some of my other posts on this
subject. You're a Berkely liberal from the fringe days of the 60s
aren't you? Your view is obviously tainted. You can put a
liberal/socialist spin on anything and you have managed to do it in
this instance.


That's two:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...d-hominem.html

J



--
Justin F. Knotzke

http://www.shampoo.ca
 




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