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  #61  
Old March 9th 06, 03:30 PM
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MB wrote:

1. You need to earn your downhill

2. Skiing is a human-powered means of travel on snow. Not
lift-powered.


There are ski areas in the Ardennes where you actually start at the top
and move down. This brings up a rather quantum mechanical quandry...

If I start at the top and go down, whether I'm skiing or not at that
point depends on whether I subsequently take the lift back up, or get up
under my own steam... so I'm some weird state of undefined skiingness,
until some future point when I decide how to return! ;-)

3. With downhill-only "skiing", you'd quickly get stuck in
a potential minimum, if venturing into the backcountry.


Plenty of options where this ain't so, as long as you can access
backcountry at a high point.

4. Downhill, that's where the skier rests.


/You/ may be able to "rest" in a 35 degree couloir, I very much doubt if
I could, even if I were skilled enough to attempt it in the first place.
The folks in the Alpine skiing events at the recent Olympics didn't
come across as "resting" when I was watching them, even if it it's a
different sort of work to the XC.

Linguistically, 'to ski' (hiihtää Fin, skida Swe) refers to
kick&glide, not coasting down a hill (laskea, åka).


In its original form, quite possibly, but I think trying to suggest that
an extreme couloir skier plying his or her trade via a telcabin ride is
either not skiing or not in backcountry is rather heavily into
snobbishness terrain.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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  #62  
Old March 9th 06, 04:29 PM
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In article ,
Peter Clinch wrote:
MB wrote:
If there's a lift, it ain't backcountry.
And coasting (lift-served "skiing") isn't skiing.


I would not go that far Marcus. That's what's referred to as a half truth.
I remember when the professional ski writer Seth M. showed up in r.s.a.
And he caught right on that the net is about generalizations.
I went on a cruising vacation, and some times I got moguls.
Seth knew perfectly well from an Alpine (skier) perspective that there
was also Nordic telemarking, and the whole stuff of winter travel like
avalanches and stuff. People ski and don't know all that kind of stuff.

The amusing thing is how novices judge skier knowledge/experience by
downhill speed. That's media for you.

So if I skin/walk up a hill and then coast down, that is skiing, but if
I start at the top, it isn't?


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  #63  
Old March 9th 06, 08:44 PM
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On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 14:44:46 GMT, MB *@*.* wrote:

Me
If there's a lift, it ain't backcountry. And coasting (lift-served
"skiing") isn't skiing.


So if I skin/walk up a hill and then coast down, that is skiing, but
if I start at the top, it isn't?


Yup.

1. You need to earn your downhill


2. Skiing is a human-powered means of travel on snow. Not
lift-powered.

3. With downhill-only "skiing", you'd quickly get stuck in
a potential minimum, if venturing into the backcountry.

4. Downhill, that's where the skier rests.
Linguistically, 'to ski' (hiihtää Fin, skida Swe) refers to
kick&glide, not coasting down a hill (laskea, åka).

5.


Ah, I suspect point 5 is the only one to pay attention to.

Nice troll, btw.
--
Champ
  #64  
Old March 9th 06, 11:42 PM
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Am Donnerstag, den 09.03.2006, 09:56 +0000 schrieb Champ:

My French is only jutt good enough to make sense of that. I'm
agnostic about whether heli access within the alps is good or bad.
While it's allowed, I'll use it.


That seems to me like a - more or less - colonialistic behaviour.
Because i do not understand (and don't want to) what's going on.

Look, heli-skiing is *ALL* about demand (client side) not supply side.
It exists because there's people like you not because the locals feel an
unvinceable interest in it.

Would you like us to discharge our garbage in your rivers and garden?

Greetings,

Ulrich


  #65  
Old March 9th 06, 11:57 PM
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Eugene Miya wrote:

And he caught right on that the net is about generalizations.


Take the above statement for example. ;

-klaus

  #66  
Old March 10th 06, 02:43 AM
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"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
MB wrote:

1. You need to earn your downhill 2. Skiing is a human-powered means of
travel on snow. Not lift-powered.


There are ski areas in the Ardennes where you actually start at the top
and move down. This brings up a rather quantum mechanical quandry...

If I start at the top and go down, whether I'm skiing or not at that point
depends on whether I subsequently take the lift back up, or get up under
my own steam... so I'm some weird state of undefined skiingness, until
some future point when I decide how to return! ;-)



Ahh, yes. Schrodinger's Skier, I believe.

-s-


  #67  
Old March 11th 06, 04:56 PM
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On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 15:30:59 +0000, Peter Clinch
wrote:

MB wrote:

1. You need to earn your downhill

2. Skiing is a human-powered means of travel on snow. Not
lift-powered.


There are ski areas in the Ardennes where you actually start at the top
and move down. This brings up a rather quantum mechanical quandry...

If I start at the top and go down, whether I'm skiing or not at that
point depends on whether I subsequently take the lift back up, or get up
under my own steam... so I'm some weird state of undefined skiingness,
until some future point when I decide how to return! ;-)


I am told that the ski area on Mt. Hood in OR is like this. Lodge in
the middle, one lift going downslope for the winter season, one going
higher for the summerglacier/snowfield (reasonable to assume that
there are times when both are open and one could ski both sections).
Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
--
At the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
  #68  
Old March 13th 06, 11:09 AM
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As if I hadn't pushed my argument far enough already... g

How about water skiing? Is *that* skiing too? If so, I guess
it could be backcountry skiing too.

I'm sure that water skiing requires a lot of strenght, skill,
coordination and whatever from the, uhm, skier. Especially at the
top competitive level. Yet, my point is that the work is done
by the power boat, not the guy being towed.

Coasting, or slalom or whatever you choose to call it, with lift
access, isn't that different. It's not a human powered means of
travel. Most of the work is done by the lift.

Me
4. Downhill, that's where the skier rests.


Peter
The folks in the Alpine skiing events at the recent Olympics
didn't come across as "resting" when I was watching them,


Of course. But they're coasters, not skiers!

even if it it's a different sort of work to the XC.


In XC, even at the highest competitive level, downhill often
gives the skier an opportunity to rest, at least in relative
terms.

3. With downhill-only "skiing", you'd quickly get stuck in a
potential minimum, if venturing into the backcountry.


Plenty of options where this ain't so, as long as you can access
backcountry at a high point.


So, for how many days can you keep on going just downhill? Downhill-
only surely isn't a viable way of travelling in the backcountry.
Compare to eg what backpacking on foot in summer would be, if you
were limited to travel merely downhill.

Linguistically, 'to ski' (hiihtää Fin, skida Swe) refers to
kick&glide, not coasting down a hill (laskea, åka).


In its original form, quite possibly, but I think trying to suggest
that an extreme couloir skier plying his or her trade via a telcabin
ride is either not skiing or not in backcountry is rather heavily into
snobbishness terrain.


I guess you could argue that distinguishing between snowshoing and
skiing is snobbish too. After all, prior to Nansen, skis were
commonly called snowshoes in English.

Anyway, I find it funny that you should find my point of view
snobbish. It puts the typical image of the sports upside down.
Over here, coasting had - and to some extent still has - the i
mage of being an elitist recreation. A bit like golf. Very much
unlike XC (or backcountry) skiing, which used to be the sport of
the masses.
  #69  
Old March 13th 06, 12:08 PM
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MB wrote:

How about water skiing? Is *that* skiing too?


It's water-skiing. I don't really see much reason to try and apply
anything about it to (snow) skiing.

I'm sure that water skiing requires a lot of strenght, skill,
coordination and whatever from the, uhm, skier. Especially at the
top competitive level. Yet, my point is that the work is done
by the power boat, not the guy being towed.


Coasting, or slalom or whatever you choose to call it, with lift
access, isn't that different. It's not a human powered means of
travel. Most of the work is done by the lift.


The very very very huge difference here is that in water skiing the
power is being supplied by external means while the activity takes
place, and it cannot take place without that external power. Downhill
skiing can take place without a lift, as has already been shown.

In XC, even at the highest competitive level, downhill often
gives the skier an opportunity to rest, at least in relative
terms.


I recall seeing a Finnish lady at the recent Olympics very probably
losing a medal because she couldn't hold her downhill together and
crashed into the fence on one of the XC races. Some rest...

So, for how many days can you keep on going just downhill? Downhill-
only surely isn't a viable way of travelling in the backcountry.


It depends on the backcountry.

Compare to eg what backpacking on foot in summer would be, if you
were limited to travel merely downhill.


It would limit you a lot, but it wouldn't prevent you from doing /anything/.

I guess you could argue that distinguishing between snowshoing and
skiing is snobbish too.


It's practical and functional. Snowshoes don't allow you to glide at
all, skis do, snowshoes are more manoeuvrable.

Anyway, I find it funny that you should find my point of view
snobbish.


It seems to be trying to define a lot of people's hobby out of existence
for no particularly obvious reason other than to look down one's nose at it.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
  #70  
Old March 13th 06, 11:30 PM
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In article ,
Peter Clinch wrote:
MB wrote:
How about water skiing? Is *that* skiing too?


It's water-skiing. I don't really see much reason to try and apply
anything about it to (snow) skiing.

....
I recall seeing a Finnish lady at the recent Olympics very probably
losing a medal because she couldn't hold her downhill together and
crashed into the fence on one of the XC races. Some rest...


Well Friday evening I saw that US late night TV influenced Finnish
politics and the host went and spent 5 days in Finland, and met the
President whom he help to re-elect. Whome he bore some resemeblence.
Like skiing.

So, for how many days can you keep on going just downhill? Downhill-
only surely isn't a viable way of travelling in the backcountry.


It depends on the backcountry.

Compare to eg what backpacking on foot in summer would be, if you
were limited to travel merely downhill.


It would limit you a lot, but it wouldn't prevent you from doing /anything/.


Finland is generally flat.

I guess you could argue that distinguishing between snowshoing and
skiing is snobbish too.


It's practical and functional. Snowshoes don't allow you to glide at
all, skis do, snowshoes are more manoeuvrable.


I would not say the latter.

Anyway, I find it funny that you should find my point of view
snobbish.


It seems to be trying to define a lot of people's hobby out of existence
for no particularly obvious reason other than to look down one's nose at it.


Send them to Vail.
Sort of like Gitmo.

--
 




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