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#71
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Speed: Boards vs. Skis??
On 11/26/10 11:18 AM, Bob F wrote:
VtSkier wrote: On 11/26/2010 12:35 PM, pigo wrote: On Nov 26, 9:26 am, wrote: VtSkier wrote: I can go across a slope on my edges without turning. Can't you? As for the argument at hand. I once said to a snowboard instructor friend of mine that skis were always faster than snowboard. We then did a run from the top of one lift to the bottom of another on a slope that goes from moderate to fairly gentle. He smoked me. The conditions we Fresh tune for him He was 20 years old (I was 60 at the time) and he was used to going very fast on a board. I think the question is still up in the air. I think someone can build a board (say 200cm long) with other features, like very little sidecut and a fairly forward stance and carving board binding with stiff boots and then he might be able to keep up with task oriented speed skis. IOW, I think it may be the equipment. 'course big cojones help too. I have found that there is always an exception just not necessarily the rule. One difference is in the stance of snowboarder vs skier they do windtunnel testing to find right position of skier for max speed low drag position. You do not go fast standing up. I can not think of getting a boarder into a aerodynamic shape with out surgery or being a double amputee. Also the real speed skiers use aerodynamic faring on their body and test in windtunnels.- Hide quoted text - Any efficient skier knows that skis are faster and more manuverable. In learning to ski the object is to learn to turn. How fast going "straight down" isn't an issue. Only snowboarders use that "logic". You can put a brick on any sliding device and achieve that. LOL, they kinda do! Well, I think "How fast going 'straight down'" is the issue of this thread, which is why I said what I did about speed skiing and speed boarding in another post. Your notes about boarders going straight down the mountain is only half of their bad behavior. The other half is skidding down the mountain on their heel sides. If they all went straight down like a brick with p-tex, they wouldn't f**k up the hill so much. It's the heel-skidders (we call them groomers at Killington) who make such a mess of the hill. Since our hill doesn't prohibit snowboarders, I've learned to put up with them and to find a few (very few) that are good at and knowledgeable about their sport. Curiously, I find that group among those who have decided to snowboard after having skied for a few years. IMO, because skiing takes a while to get good at, you have time to learn safety and etiquette surrounding the sport. After 3 days of lessons and bumps on the bunny hill, most snowboarders can take on and heel- skid down the main mountain, never having learned anything except how to stand up without being too badly bruised. They then think they are experts and can do no wrong. And I do delight in going to Mad River Glen once in a while where they DON'T allow snowboards. When the teenage boys were all on skis, they sideslipped down everything just like they do now on snowboards. Why blame the device for the actions of the person. My theory is that Alta and others banned boards JUST to get rid of teenage boys. As more teenagers are choosing to ski rather than snowboard, I'm seeing more skiers sideslipping down slopes they shouldn't be on. It's not the equipment. Beginner skiers sideslipping the advanced slopes is a result of extended grooming. It's difficult to sideslip soft steep snow on the steep using skis - consequently such off-piste terrain pretty much removes the low skilled ski set preserving the interesting terrain for the skilled. Beginning boarders can and do get into stuff they can't ride, sideslip down those slopes, and ruin the snow for the skilled. Or the better amoung them make wide sweeping turns down fresh snow fields when spooning turns harvesting the snow, would allow dozens, maybe hundreds of skiers and boarders to have a full ride of fresh turns. Wasteful. Disgraceful. Talentless doofus. _Tragedy of the Commons_ |
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#72
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Speed: Boards vs. Skis??
On Nov 26, 9:35*am, pigo wrote:
On Nov 26, 9:26*am, downhill wrote: VtSkier wrote: I can go across a slope on my edges without turning. Can't you? As for the argument at hand. I once said to a snowboard instructor friend of mine that skis were always faster than snowboard. We then did a run from the top of one lift to the bottom of another on a slope that goes from moderate to fairly gentle. He smoked me. The conditions we Fresh tune for him He was 20 years old (I was 60 at the time) and he was used to going very fast on a board. I think the question is still up in the air. I think someone can build a board (say 200cm long) with other features, like very little sidecut and a fairly forward stance and carving board binding with stiff boots and then he might be able to keep up with task oriented speed skis. IOW, I think it may be the equipment. 'course big cojones help too. I have found that there is always an exception just not necessarily the rule. One difference is in the stance of snowboarder vs skier they do windtunnel testing to find right position of skier for max speed low drag position. You do not go fast standing up. I can not think of getting a boarder into a aerodynamic shape with out surgery or being a double amputee. Also the real speed skiers use aerodynamic faring *on their body and test in windtunnels.- Hide quoted text - Any efficient skier knows that skis are faster and more manuverable. In learning to ski the object is to learn to turn. How fast going "straight down" isn't an issue. Holy ****, you really are insane. Utterly delusional Only snowboarders use that "logic". You can put a brick on any sliding device and achieve that. LOL, they kinda do!- Looks like they put a brain damaged guy with a brick for a brain on skis at Alta. |
#73
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Speed: Boards vs. Skis??
In article ,
lal_truckee wrote: On 11/26/10 11:38 AM, snoig wrote: And here's an interesting link that compares skier X times vs boarder X times at the Vancouver Olympics. So this is a comparison of similar levels of skiers and snowboarders. http://wiki.fisski.com/index.php/Ski..._times,_speeds _and_percentage_differences_Vancouver_2010 Men's boarder X times are about 90% of skier X times. Women's boarder X times are about 85% of skier X times. IIRC the course sets favored boarders - they use those leaning gates which offered no obstacle, whereas skiers had to deal with vertical gates which should be an advantage to boarders. In spite of it skier times are still better. Actually, he simple got his figures backwards. Fastest down the course was men's ski-cross at 72.73 seconds. Second fastest was... ....*women's* ski-cross at 77.52 seconds. Men's snowboard-cross was slower than women's ski-cross. "Event Time(sec) Time diff.(sec) Speed(m/s) Speed diff.(m/s) Men's SX 72.73 - 15.73 - Ladies SX 77.52 4.79 14.76 -0.97 Men's SBX 80.93 8.20 14.14 -1.59 Ladies SBX 85.76 13.03 13.34 -2.39 Data The official results from the qualification phase for each competition was used. The time is shown in seconds and 100's of a second. The top five ranked competitors time, in the qualifications, were made into an average time for each event. In snowboard Cross each competitors takes two runs. The best time was used and averaged. In Ski Cross, each competitor takes 1 run and the time 5 best times were averaged. The velocity in 'meters per second' was determined by taking the average time and then dividing it by the course length." -- Alan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia http://gallery.me.com/alangbaker/100008/DSCF0162/web.jpg |
#74
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Speed: Boards vs. Skis??
On Nov 26, 9:52*am, VtSkier wrote:
As for aerodynamics and the testing of skiers in a wind tunnel, I'm sure, if it hasn't been done yet, it will be done with boarders. Are you so ****ing ignorant that you don't know they have been doing wind tunnel testing since the sixties? Yeah, you're that ignorant. Hey, still waiting for the nutcase to shoot me. You know, the one who threatened my life and asked where I lived, and you posted my home address? That's a death threat, dumb****. No wonder you will never stand in front of me and spew your ****. Because I have no legal restrictions on what I can do, and you'e a coward. |
#75
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Speed: Boards vs. Skis??
lal_truckee wrote:
On 11/26/10 11:18 AM, Bob F wrote: VtSkier wrote: On 11/26/2010 12:35 PM, pigo wrote: On Nov 26, 9:26 am, wrote: VtSkier wrote: I can go across a slope on my edges without turning. Can't you? As for the argument at hand. I once said to a snowboard instructor friend of mine that skis were always faster than snowboard. We then did a run from the top of one lift to the bottom of another on a slope that goes from moderate to fairly gentle. He smoked me. The conditions we Fresh tune for him He was 20 years old (I was 60 at the time) and he was used to going very fast on a board. I think the question is still up in the air. I think someone can build a board (say 200cm long) with other features, like very little sidecut and a fairly forward stance and carving board binding with stiff boots and then he might be able to keep up with task oriented speed skis. IOW, I think it may be the equipment. 'course big cojones help too. I have found that there is always an exception just not necessarily the rule. One difference is in the stance of snowboarder vs skier they do windtunnel testing to find right position of skier for max speed low drag position. You do not go fast standing up. I can not think of getting a boarder into a aerodynamic shape with out surgery or being a double amputee. Also the real speed skiers use aerodynamic faring on their body and test in windtunnels.- Hide quoted text - Any efficient skier knows that skis are faster and more manuverable. In learning to ski the object is to learn to turn. How fast going "straight down" isn't an issue. Only snowboarders use that "logic". You can put a brick on any sliding device and achieve that. LOL, they kinda do! Well, I think "How fast going 'straight down'" is the issue of this thread, which is why I said what I did about speed skiing and speed boarding in another post. Your notes about boarders going straight down the mountain is only half of their bad behavior. The other half is skidding down the mountain on their heel sides. If they all went straight down like a brick with p-tex, they wouldn't f**k up the hill so much. It's the heel-skidders (we call them groomers at Killington) who make such a mess of the hill. Since our hill doesn't prohibit snowboarders, I've learned to put up with them and to find a few (very few) that are good at and knowledgeable about their sport. Curiously, I find that group among those who have decided to snowboard after having skied for a few years. IMO, because skiing takes a while to get good at, you have time to learn safety and etiquette surrounding the sport. After 3 days of lessons and bumps on the bunny hill, most snowboarders can take on and heel- skid down the main mountain, never having learned anything except how to stand up without being too badly bruised. They then think they are experts and can do no wrong. And I do delight in going to Mad River Glen once in a while where they DON'T allow snowboards. When the teenage boys were all on skis, they sideslipped down everything just like they do now on snowboards. Why blame the device for the actions of the person. My theory is that Alta and others banned boards JUST to get rid of teenage boys. As more teenagers are choosing to ski rather than snowboard, I'm seeing more skiers sideslipping down slopes they shouldn't be on. It's not the equipment. Beginner skiers sideslipping the advanced slopes is a result of extended grooming. It's difficult to sideslip soft steep snow on the steep using skis - consequently such off-piste terrain pretty much removes the low skilled ski set preserving the interesting terrain for the skilled. And again, it mostly teenagers that repeatedly get onto slopes they can't handle. Watch for them on those steep narrow runs under the chair. Wher there's little room to turn. Snowboard, ski - it's the teenagers (or kids) that you see sideslipping. That's just what kids do. I NEVER taught my snowboard students to sideslip for this very reason. It just enables them to scrape down slopes rather than ride down. Sure, they'll figure it out for themselves oh too soon. Beginning boarders can and do get into stuff they can't ride, sideslip down those slopes, and ruin the snow for the skilled. Or the better amoung them make wide sweeping turns down fresh snow fields when spooning turns harvesting the snow, would allow dozens, maybe hundreds of skiers and boarders to have a full ride of fresh turns. Wasteful. Disgraceful. Talentless doofus. _Tragedy of the Commons_ Are you calling me a doofus? I'm not the ones you are complaining about. I don't do that. I'd much rather link tight turns through the powder or the bumps. |
#76
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Speed: Boards vs. Skis??
lal_truckee wrote:
On 11/26/10 10:58 AM, downhill wrote: VtSkier wrote: boarder. I don't doubt that. There have been speed skiers since about 1860. There has been a lot of development since then. I still think you'll see the gap narrow. Will a boarder ever beat a a skier in timed trials? I don't know, but it will be interesting to watch them try. and you know they will try. As for aerodynamics and the testing of skiers in a wind tunnel, I'm sure, if it hasn't been done yet, it will be done with boarders. the tear drop shape is most aerodynamic the tuck gets close to that, at least a lot closer than any shape I have seen a boarder in. Also the speed trial boarders (riffing from posted video) seem to be mounting hard shell bindings nearly parallel to the board but slightly offset to avoid being taken for a monoskier. Convergence. I think a modified tele binding for the rear boot would allow a tuck. Equipment evolution is obviously still very young. Snowboarders need the connection to the edge on both feet. A loose heel won't cut it. Maybe with a wedge under the rear binding. |
#77
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Speed: Boards vs. Skis??
snoig wrote:
I was wondering; given the same snow and path; which is faster Skis or Snowboards? I've read somewhere, there used to have the mixed skiing and snowboarding "king of the mountain" competition in Europe (more likely in France, iirc) some years ago, snowboarders beat skiers every time; that's why there only separated skierX and snowboarderX competitions nowadays. No, it's the other way round. The skiers always beat the snowboarders. I have a couple of friends who competed back in the day. The skiers didn't just beat the snowboarders, they smoked them. That's what you say; nevertheless, the one I've read was another person's saying, blah, blah, blah, same as you are. Really, they are just people saying, I don't think either is true. But I think that as snowboards can carve a fairly straight line (and skis have to turn to carve), snowboards would be faster than skis. Yes, that's what I say and that's what my co-worker who actually competed in boarder x in the X-games says. We've had this conversation before. As opposed to what you say, a known troll who has frequently been proved wrong. Just like when you claimed that Olympic downhill courses were mainly set on blue runs. Do you still claim that b.s.? This is just another example of how little you know about skiing and snowboarding. On absolute terms skis are faster (check out Derby de la Meije times for proof), but snowboards may be faster on average in some terrain (powder, near-endless vertical) as less they require less energy expenditure from the rider and therefore less stops. Given how snowboarders can break a carving on a dime, which gives them the agility and confidence to run at the higher speed, I think that snowboards are faster than skis in general sliding environments. snowbender Well that's another area where you would be wrong but my guess is you're just spewing misinformation just to be a troll. Same as the misinformation you're spewing, are you not a troll? And what misinformation is that? That skis are faster than snowboards? The world ski/snowboard speed records prove my point without a doubt. You can argue all you want but once again, you are wrong. On the mountains you'd occasional see people bomb down the groomed runs, snowboarders were almost always faster. No, they are not. You are misinformed as usual. Just try doing this google search: skis vs snowboards speed Just point out to me one example where someone even claims snowboards are faster. And here's an interesting link that compares skier X times vs boarder X times at the Vancouver Olympics. So this is a comparison of similar levels of skiers and snowboarders. http://wiki.fisski.com/index.php/Ski...Vancouver_2010 Men's boarder X times are about 90% of skier X times. Women's boarder X times are about 85% of skier X times. So, you have been proven wrong! You can either admit it or just keep spewing your bull**** and look like an idiot. I think we all know the path you will take. I bet you're right on this one. |
#78
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Speed: Boards vs. Skis??
On 11/26/2010 02:04 PM, pigo wrote:
On Nov 26, 11:11 am, wrote: Well, I think "How fast going 'straight down'" is the issue of this thread, which is why I said what I did about speed skiing and speed boarding in another post. Well that's really the only way to establish apples to apples isn't it. Even running the same course seems like it would have advantages depending on who set it. Though I have a hard time imagining a boarder ever being faster except for in a straight down, difficult snow, condition where not uncrossing tips could spell disaster. Your notes about boarders going straight down the mountain is only half of their bad behavior. The other half is skidding down the mountain on their heel sides. If they all went straight down like a brick with p-tex, they wouldn't f**k up the hill so much. It's the heel-skidders (we call them groomers at Killington) who make such a mess of the hill. The going straight down isn't as bad as the lack of control as they do it. I could tuck and go straight or super-g an entire run in 3-4 turns. But I had 4 edges. All easily at hand for minor adjustment thru major course changes. A snowboards 2 edges are a foot apart and require a full swing of the body to the other side to get any sort of change at all. By someone good at it! And they are going backwards half of the time! Flattening the snow is the reason I don't ski where they are allowed. I can deal with their recklessness. It's the women and children that are usually the victims of the "snowboard (wannabe) thugs". Since our hill doesn't prohibit snowboarders, I've learned to put up with them and to find a few (very few) that are good at and knowledgeable about their sport. Curiously, I find that group among those who have decided to snowboard after having skied for a few years. See above. Exception/rule. IMO, because skiing takes a while to get good at, you have time to learn safety and etiquette surrounding the sport. After 3 days of lessons and bumps on the bunny hill, most snowboarders can take on and heel- skid down the main mountain, never having learned anything except how to stand up without being too badly bruised. They then think they are experts and can do no wrong. And I do delight in going to Mad River Glen once in a while where they DON'T allow snowboards. Preaching/choir :-) Yeah, I know. |
#79
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Speed: Boards vs. Skis??
On 11/26/2010 02:18 PM, Bob F wrote:
VtSkier wrote: On 11/26/2010 12:35 PM, pigo wrote: On Nov 26, 9:26 am, wrote: VtSkier wrote: I can go across a slope on my edges without turning. Can't you? As for the argument at hand. I once said to a snowboard instructor friend of mine that skis were always faster than snowboard. We then did a run from the top of one lift to the bottom of another on a slope that goes from moderate to fairly gentle. He smoked me. The conditions we Fresh tune for him He was 20 years old (I was 60 at the time) and he was used to going very fast on a board. I think the question is still up in the air. I think someone can build a board (say 200cm long) with other features, like very little sidecut and a fairly forward stance and carving board binding with stiff boots and then he might be able to keep up with task oriented speed skis. IOW, I think it may be the equipment. 'course big cojones help too. I have found that there is always an exception just not necessarily the rule. One difference is in the stance of snowboarder vs skier they do windtunnel testing to find right position of skier for max speed low drag position. You do not go fast standing up. I can not think of getting a boarder into a aerodynamic shape with out surgery or being a double amputee. Also the real speed skiers use aerodynamic faring on their body and test in windtunnels.- Hide quoted text - Any efficient skier knows that skis are faster and more manuverable. In learning to ski the object is to learn to turn. How fast going "straight down" isn't an issue. Only snowboarders use that "logic". You can put a brick on any sliding device and achieve that. LOL, they kinda do! Well, I think "How fast going 'straight down'" is the issue of this thread, which is why I said what I did about speed skiing and speed boarding in another post. Your notes about boarders going straight down the mountain is only half of their bad behavior. The other half is skidding down the mountain on their heel sides. If they all went straight down like a brick with p-tex, they wouldn't f**k up the hill so much. It's the heel-skidders (we call them groomers at Killington) who make such a mess of the hill. Since our hill doesn't prohibit snowboarders, I've learned to put up with them and to find a few (very few) that are good at and knowledgeable about their sport. Curiously, I find that group among those who have decided to snowboard after having skied for a few years. IMO, because skiing takes a while to get good at, you have time to learn safety and etiquette surrounding the sport. After 3 days of lessons and bumps on the bunny hill, most snowboarders can take on and heel- skid down the main mountain, never having learned anything except how to stand up without being too badly bruised. They then think they are experts and can do no wrong. And I do delight in going to Mad River Glen once in a while where they DON'T allow snowboards. When the teenage boys were all on skis, they sideslipped down everything just like they do now on snowboards. Why blame the device for the actions of the person. My theory is that Alta and others banned boards JUST to get rid of teenage boys. As more teenagers are choosing to ski rather than snowboard, I'm seeing more skiers sideslipping down slopes they shouldn't be on. It's not the equipment. Observe a bit more. EVERYBODY (who skis) does a chicken plow down when they are in over their head. However, I'd like to point out that it takes a while (considerably longer than 3 days) to master a chicken plow that will safely get you off, oh say, Lower Ovation at Killington. The dude who is halfway athletic and has the young person's attitude of invulnerability who is on a snowboard wouldn't have much trouble at all heel-skidding down Lower O after 3 days of some instruction and experience. The skier, even the invulnerable young person with half a year experience (oh, say 15 days) will have jelly for legs at the end of the session and probably won't do it again for several more years. The snowboarder will think he has had a great time and will do it again at 4PM while we watch. So yeah, given similar techniques to achieve the same goal (side-slipping -or- heel skidding) down a difficult slope because you don't have other skills to do it "right", it's easier on a board. A lot easier, and kinder to your body too. So to some extent it is the equipment. For those of you who ski RealSnow(tm) and don't partake of our EasternFirm(tm) Lower Ovation is about a half-mile long at a pretty constant pitch of about 40 degrees. It is often bumpy and/or icy. Vertigo is steeper, but its steep sections are very much shorter, no more than a quarter mile each with the top drop only being over 40 degrees. |
#80
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Speed: Boards vs. Skis??
On 11/26/2010 02:51 PM, Ted Waldron wrote:
In , wrote: As for aerodynamics and the testing of skiers in a wind tunnel, I'm sure, if it hasn't been done yet, it will be done with boarders. There is a difference between a wind tunnel test of a boarder in aerodynamic position with the lowest drag coefficient possible, and trying to control a snowboard in that the same position on a speed course. I don't see boarders going much faster than the 200kph, but they can't control their board at that speeds, and they need to get ouf of crouch with more drag to control their board. Their center of gravity is much higher than a speed skier. We'll see. I've made my prediction, which is that the speed gap between skiers and snowboarders will narrow as time goes on. Whether or not, in a time trial, a snowboarder actually goes faster than a skier is up for grabs. I'm only predicting that the gap will narrow. |
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