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#21
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Snow tires?
On 11/28/2010 05:03 AM, BrritSki wrote:
On 28/11/2010 10:31, Richard Henry wrote: On Nov 28, 12:46 am, wrote: On 28/11/2010 06:03, Walt wrote: On 11/27/2010 9:58 PM, VtSkier wrote: Another trick I used to use in a FWD car was to use the hand brake to slow the vehicle in slippery going.... Wow, what a great thread, very interesting. I don't do much driving on snow, but have a Subaru Outback and when I do meet poor conditions it's great. When I bought it (used) it had new all-season tyres on and I was surprised how well they lasted. Finally, I've had ABS on all my cars for at least 20 years and have only engaged it a handful of times, so I guess I am doing something right I didn't know you could disengage ABS. What I meant was inadvertently got into a situation where it kicked in. Not counting the times when I first got each car and deliberately triggered it so I knew what it felt like - if you don't, it can come as a big surprise just at a time when you don't need more distractions ! The ABS in my truck sounds like you've driven over a "rumble strip" in the road. My truck also doesn't have traction control, but a car my wife had once did. That's where my opinion of it comes from. |
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#22
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Snow tires?
On Nov 27, 7:58*pm, VtSkier wrote:
With your truck (is it 4WD?) My truck is 4x4. But it really came in handy with the airport vans I used to drive at ski areas. Vail/Colorado didn't salt so the roads developed more ICE and made it more appropriate there. I used the handbrake trick too. because you can slow AND steer. |
#23
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Snow tires?
On Nov 28, 1:46*am, BrritSki wrote:
Finally, I've had ABS on all my cars for at least 20 years and have only engaged it a handful of times, so I guess I am doing something right The problem I have with ABS is that it doesn't allow me to drive like I learned. And it's hard to unlearn. When I first got it I was still doing the "brake pump" thing. I heard that the procedure with ABS is to stomp the peddle and the brakes do the pumping. Is there another method? |
#24
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Snow tires?
On 11/27/2010 11:47 PM, Walt wrote:
On 11/27/2010 9:05 PM, VtSkier wrote: On 11/27/2010 05:56 PM, Walt wrote: Whatever you do, don't let anyone talk you into "all season" tires that are "almost as good as snowtires". Get dedicated snows. While I believe this is true, and it's more true for a "regular" car (2 wheel drive) than for either an "all wheel drive (full time 4 wheel drive)" or selectable 4 wheel drive. I've driven 4WD vehicles with all season tires and FWD vehicles with real snow tires and I'll take FWD with real snow tires in a heartbeat. It's not even close for most winter driving situations. Let's discuss driving conditions. You're in the upper midwest. I suspect that you have snowy driving conditions on a regular basis. I'd like to hear from you how the local road crews handle keeping roads clear. Even the lake effect snow areas of northern New York roads are handled differently than they are here in Vermont. Here's what the crews do here. Unless it is pnuking snow, they will salt the roads a lot more than they plow. This causes a slush condition in which you want to dig through to gain traction from the pavement below. I think they do this because most of our storms happen at relatively high temps, 20 degrees to 30 degrees. Salt works at this temp range and by the end of the storm event the roads are pretty much clear to pavement. Snow falling at those temps on a road tends to get polished down to near ice before the plows can get to it and if they are plowing, they are doing so with a truck that is also dumping salt. My 4WD vehicles with all weather tires track better in the slush than any FWD car with snow tires that I have ever owned. The traction on slippery going on back roads is also better with the 4WD AllWeather as it is with the FWD and snows. Also, I might point out that road crews around here don't always wait for the storm to start. I've seen them out putting down salt before the first snowflake. So, in my conditions, my 4WD vehicle with GOOD all weather tires is more than acceptable and IMO better than FWD with snows. Then, between storms, I have a comfortable ride and better gas mileage. You might also note that the signs they post in the Sierra's when a storm is expected is that you must have chains OR 4 wheel drive. It does not specify snow tires. Look at the tread of a snow tire, or more properly an "mud and snow" tire (read the sidewall). These big grippers are made to dig into a loose material and gain traction. The tread pattern is only a part of the picture. The main improvement of real snowtires like the Blizzak and the Hakkepallita is the material science behind the rubber compounds. The material just flat out grips better than normal tire rubber. The tradeoff of course is that the compound wears out faster, especially at higher temps. It's just like with skis - the breakthrough is not so much the sidecut as the torsional rigidity and vibrational damping made possible by advances in materials. The only way these are going to perform on ice is to have studs. Um.... recent tests have shown the new formulations grip *better* than studs. Studs tend to tear right through the ice so their grippiness is limited by the strength of the ice. At near freezing temps, the ice has little structural integrity, so the studs just rip right through it. Grippy rubber formulations spread the load over a larger surface area and hold better than the point-load of a stud. In my "real world" I'm happy that the studs break through. In the past it has been noted that narrow snow tires are sometimes more effective than wide ones because the wide ones "float" and the narrow ones break through. IMO a test which finds a certain solution works better on a block of ice better than another may or may not have real world application. The studs ripping through ice might just be what you want. There is better traction in the material under the ice. So I've already agreed that Blizzaks and apparently Haks are as good a solution as studs. But... already having two good studded snows for my wife's car, I bought two more rather than spring for four Blizzaks. It seemed a no-brainer to me. For others following this thread, you should always have the same kind of tires at both ends of the car. If you have AWD, you need also to have tires of the same brand, size, tread pattern and age at both ends of the car. Braking. There isn't a tire in the world that will improve your braking on ice except a studded tire. Not true. See above. Studs are an old technology that worked pretty well but has now been superseded. Really, the bottom line for driving on slippery surfaces is that a higher coeffficient of friction will do much more for you than doubling the number of driving wheels (while keeping the number of braking wheels the same). I've never understood how anyone could be so penny-wise as to spend $35K on a 4WD SUV and not pony up another $500 for real snow tires. //Walt |
#25
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Snow tires?
On 11/28/2010 12:29 AM, Bob F wrote:
VtSkier wrote: uphill. If the center of the road is icy, have at least 2 wheels in the softer snow/slush/granular junk on the right hand side of the road, especially going down. I did that once to save wear on the chains once when the wheel track area of the road was bare. Some idiot had gone off the road earlier. He was gone, but his tracks took me right into the ditch. Several auto enhancement s have been discussed here, it seems that sometimes the actual function and names were criss crossed. ASB- anti-lock braking Traction Control- applied brake to spinning wheel if other wheels are going slower Stability Control- applies individual brakes as needed to counteract skids A word on snow tires; one type to consider is the real snow tire, made with a special all season rubber compound so that the tire can be used year round. Nokian WRG2. I have a set which seem to work ok. Just had them a year so I am waiting to see if I get reasonable life out of them; early looks at tread seem that it might be wearing kind of fast. These Nokians use a canola-silica compound for improved ice traction,and are considered "all-weather" as compared to "all-season". They are rated as snow tires and marked as such. http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...2-99026508.htm http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulle...pletred-25418/ In the US they do not seem to (usually) sell them as snow tire, but in Europe they do. For reference; I previously used Michelen Hydroedge for summer tires and Dunlop Graspix for Winter tires. One last note; for my WRG2 tires I found I had to increase the tire pressure a bit (like 5 lbs) or they felt slightly bumpy or out of balance. |
#26
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Snow tires?
On 11/28/2010 10:40 AM, pigo wrote:
On Nov 28, 1:46 am, wrote: Finally, I've had ABS on all my cars for at least 20 years and have only engaged it a handful of times, so I guess I am doing something right The problem I have with ABS is that it doesn't allow me to drive like I learned. And it's hard to unlearn. When I first got it I was still doing the "brake pump" thing. I heard that the procedure with ABS is to stomp the peddle and the brakes do the pumping. Is there another method? No, Britt is probably driving the way you and I drive. Very light foot on the brake, pumping if skid is noticed, etc. The only time ABS has engaged in my truck is when I've stomped on pavement or gravel hard enough to skid. I don't like it particularly on slippery going either but at least it's not detrimental as traction control is. |
#27
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Snow tires?
On Nov 27, 9:29*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
VtSkier wrote: uphill. If the center of the road is icy, have at least 2 wheels in the softer snow/slush/granular junk on the right hand side of the road, especially going down. I did that once to save wear on the chains once when the wheel track area of the road was bare. Some idiot had gone off the road earlier. He was gone, but his tracks took me right into the ditch. Who is the idiot? Looks to me like you follow the freaks of rsa right into the scummy ditch on a regular basis. |
#28
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Snow tires?
On 11/28/10 7:55 AM, VtSkier wrote:
You might also note that the signs they post in the Sierra's when a storm is expected is that you must have chains OR 4 wheel drive. It does not specify snow tires. The signs don't; the pertinent law does. It reads "4WD with snow tires" or chains. Law also specifies 4WD must carry chains in possession to proceed. M&S rating is what they mean by "snow tires" BTW - almost all modern tires are so rated. It also specifies the 4WD must be engaged - lots of lawyerly flatlanders drive their shiny spanking SUVs to the resorts but never learned how to engage their part time 4WD. (part time 4WD are admittedly rare these AWD days.) Then there's the folks who buy a humongous SUV with the 2WD option - they pass by the DMV chain control guys pretending to be 4WD and end up littered all over the shoulder, banged up. |
#29
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Snow tires?
On 28/11/2010 16:26, VtSkier wrote:
On 11/28/2010 05:03 AM, BrritSki wrote: On 28/11/2010 10:31, Richard Henry wrote: On Nov 28, 12:46 am, wrote: On 28/11/2010 06:03, Walt wrote: On 11/27/2010 9:58 PM, VtSkier wrote: Another trick I used to use in a FWD car was to use the hand brake to slow the vehicle in slippery going.... Wow, what a great thread, very interesting. ... Not counting the times when I first got each car and deliberately triggered it so I knew what it felt like - if you don't, it can come as a big surprise just at a time when you don't need more distractions ! The ABS in my truck sounds like you've driven over a "rumble strip" in the road. Exactly - if you've never heard/experienced it is very disconcerting to hear it for the first time and downright scary in an emergency situation. My truck also doesn't have traction control, but a car my wife had once did. That's where my opinion of it comes from. Never had traction control afaik, just have a HOLD setting on the Scooby for traction on ice/snow, but that's different I think. |
#30
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Snow tires?
On Nov 28, 7:55*am, VtSkier wrote:
You might also note that the signs they post in the Sierra's when a storm is expected is that you must have chains OR 4 wheel drive. It does not specify snow tires. They can't put all those words on the sign. The longer notice given on the Cal Trans website, phone and radio reports always says "four- wheel drive with snow tires on all four wheels". When I had my Jeep, the law and the CHP gatekeepers always required that we carry chains anyway. A friend got a ticket for not having them once on his 4WD pickup-camper, and they made him turn around and go down as well. |
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