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what I got from the New Skate



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 15th 03, 10:18 PM
Ken Roberts
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Default what I got from the New Skate

The New Skate ideas had a big impact on my early skating, and stayed with me
since.

My ski skating started on rollerskis in late 2000, so all the images I tried
to emulate and exercises I practiced came from the Team Birkie dryland
training video. Then Vordenberg's "New Skate" articles in the 2000-2001
Master Skier magazine hit me, along with some New Skate ideas I heard at
summer rollerski camp.

Below is my reaction -- how did the New Skate impact your skiing?

Ken
___________________________________
(A) Legs -- use both of them equally
Measured in hours, this was the biggest impact of the New Skate on my life.
I did lots and lots of no-poles dryland skating to learn this (more than
with poles). And I loved it, and on snow I felt it definitely helped my
skating with poles. And on dryland I now do even more of it.

(B) Body position -- "gunslinger"
I find I keep re-discovering strong forward ankle flex every few months, and
each time it hits me how doing it makes my leg-push more powerful -- and
then I wonder why I ever lost track of it. For me this focus on strong
ankle bend is the biggest improvement over Audun Endestad and John Teaford's
ski-skating book, and the New Skate emphasis on forward hips is useful as a
complement to Endestad's focus on knee bend.

(C) Quiet Upper Body
I became a big convert to this concept -- preached it on this newsgroup --
argued against anybody who tried to distract us from directing all movements
into _forward_ motion. Practiced it for hours, felt how cool it was to be
so strong and dynamic with my legs and so quiet and stable above, at the
same time. And I still think those quiet upper body hours were an excellent
training and learning phase for me.

(D) Continuous application of force with good turnover
More points where I became a big preacher as well as practitioner. Lately
I've been backing off on turnover -- to get more joyfully immersed in the
amazing possibilities for continuous force offered by inline skates.

(E) the Old skate -- what was wrong
I had lots of doubts about things in the old dryland training video, so when
I read Vordenberg's criticisms, by immediate reaction was, "Yes, that's what
I was thinking too!" I never could see the physics of NKT and "complete"
weight commitment for _skating_. And I always thought "length of glide" was
a false clue for speed (though fun when not racing), so I loved Vordenberg's
notorious slogan about "a gliding ski . . . "



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  #2  
Old December 15th 03, 11:42 PM
J999w
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Default what I got from the New Skate


(C) Quiet Upper Body
I became a big convert to this concept -- preached it on this newsgroup --
argued against anybody who tried to distract us from directing all movements
into _forward_ motion.


I would think this depends on your physique. For the cyclist with a wimpy upper
body, this makes sense. However, if you canoe race all summer and have the
shoulders and back like Paul Bunyan, by golly you're going to use them !

jw
milwaukee
  #3  
Old December 16th 03, 03:34 AM
Philip Nelson
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Default what I got from the New Skate


(C) Quiet Upper Body
I became a big convert to this concept -- preached it on this newsgroup --
argued against anybody who tried to distract us from directing all movements
into _forward_ motion.


The point Bryan Fish made on this went something like this. The upper
body doesn't twist very much nor bend at the waist so much. But, it is not
quiet in terms of application of force. He teaches a very explosive curl
at the upper abdomen which proceeds the arms movement. So, if you picture
a head bobbing (slightly), the hands would stay with the head until that
curl was complete, and then the arms/triceps kick in to follow through. In
this way, a large muscle group is employed to initate the forward
movement, and the smaller arm muscles are gravy at the end. He showed me
many examples of world cup skiers, past and present who seem to use this
style, but Dahlie, classic skiing, was the most clear example.

I have definately not mastered this.
  #4  
Old December 16th 03, 09:19 PM
Chris Cline
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Default what I got from the New Skate

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you can use the heck out of those big manly traps & lats & everything else, but still have a "quiet upper body". If you watch WC videos, you will see a lot of powerful poling, but not a lot of upper body movement in terms of direction or level changing (weaving & bobbing).

Don't mistake "quiet" with a "passive" or "un-engaged".

CC

J999w wrote:

(C) Quiet Upper Body
I became a big convert to this concept -- preached it on this newsgroup --
argued against anybody who tried to distract us from directing all movements
into _forward_ motion.


I would think this depends on your physique. For the cyclist with a wimpy upper
body, this makes sense. However, if you canoe race all summer and have the
shoulders and back like Paul Bunyan, by golly you're going to use them !

jw
milwaukee





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--0-497203983-1071595711=:16010
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DIVyou can use the heck out of those big manly traps & lats & everything else, but still have a "quiet upper body".  If you watch WC videos, you will see a lot of powerful poling, but not a lot of upper body movement in terms of direction or level changing (weaving & bobbing)./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVDon't mistake "quiet" with a "passive" or "un-engaged"./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVCC/DIV
DIVBRBIJ999w >/I/B wrote:/DIV
BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">BR>(C) Quiet Upper BodyBR>I became a big convert to this concept -- preached it on this newsgroup -- BR>argued against anybody who tried to distract us from directing all movementsBR>into _forward_ motion.BRBRI would think this depends on your physique. For the cyclist with a wimpy upperBRbody, this makes sense. However, if you canoe race all summer and have theBRshoulders and back like Paul Bunyan, by golly you're going to use them !BRBRjwBRmilwaukeeBRBRBRBR/BLOCKQUOTEphr SIZE=1
Do you Yahoo!?br
a href="http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=21260/*http://photos.yahoo.com"New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing/a
--0-497203983-1071595711=:16010--




  #5  
Old December 17th 03, 07:41 PM
Ken Roberts
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Default what I got from the New Skate

So point me at one video of World Cup skier in an actual race doing V1 up a
hill who is not violating the "absolutely no shoulder rotation or shoulder
tilt" in the New Skate articles? (and preferably one that's less than 10 MB
download).

Chris Cline wrote
If you watch WC videos, you will see a lot of powerful
poling, but not a lot of upper body movement in terms of
direction or level changing (weaving & bobbing).


I mostly agree with you about V2, but I'm not seeing the evidence of quiet
upper body for V1 (offset, paddle dance) in World Cup races. Looks to me
like the World Cup racers these days tend to have bit less upper body motion
than in the mid-1990's, but the shoulder rotation and tilt are still clearly
there, notably in the Carl Swenson video clip on JanneG's website.

Ken


  #6  
Old December 18th 03, 12:20 AM
Philip Nelson
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Default what I got from the New Skate

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 19:41:06 +0000, Ken Roberts wrote:

So point me at one video of World Cup skier in an actual race doing V1 up a
hill who is not violating the "absolutely no shoulder rotation or shoulder
tilt" in the New Skate articles? (and preferably one that's less than 10 MB
download).


There is no such thing. In the ski progressions video, they don't even do
that. It's *quiet*, not dead. They have a drill where you hold your poles
first horizontally, and then vertically to get an idea of how much motion
there is on both planes. None of the example skiers had no motion, either
rotationally, or on the vertical axis (shoulder tilt).

I too will have to time myself on a longe climb, but on my first 10 hours
on snow this year, I feel as fast and as comfortable as I ever have
climbing hills. But then, I'm still a weinee and may not be trying very
hard.
  #7  
Old December 18th 03, 02:03 PM
Ken Roberts
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Default what I got from the New Skate

I'm not talking about cases of skiers _trying_ to be quiet, but not
completely succeeding. What I'm seeing in the videos of the World Cup
racers doing uphill V1 is: blatant obvious vigorous violation of the Quiet
Upper Body rule of the New Skate -- like for example the Carl Swenson video
on Janne G's website.

So I'll settle for one video clip of a World Cup skier _trying_ to be pretty
quiet doing uphill V1 in a race. Someone who is only a _little_ bit
violating the New Skate rule of "absolutely no shoulder rotation or twist or
shoulder tilt or dip ever".

Ken
__________________________________________________ _
doing V1 up a hill who is not violating the
"absolutely no shoulder rotation or shoulder tilt"
in the New Skate articles


Philip Nelson wrote
There is no such thing. In the ski progressions video, they don't even do
that. It's *quiet*, not dead. They have a drill where you hold your poles
first horizontally, and then vertically to get an idea of how much motion
there is on both planes. None of the example skiers had no motion, either
rotationally, or on the vertical axis (shoulder tilt).



  #8  
Old December 18th 03, 07:51 PM
Chris Cline
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Default what I got from the New Skate

--0-1261782672-1071776569=:60496
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I said "not a lot" of upper body movement, not "absolutely no shoulder rotatation or tilt." Skiing is not robotic repetition of motion, and there is definitely going to be variation in what a skiier looks like depending on how they have adapted a technique to their build and conditioning, how steep the hill, how long into a race, what they had for breakfast, etc., etc., etc.

The "no upper body movement" goal is a pedantic objective (if you want to get pedantic) that skiiers should (or could) keep in mind as an "antidote" to excessive shoulder rotation. I know that as I ski up a steep hill, I'm telling myself "keep your shoulders straight" and trying for that, but I know that there is some rotation going on. Just hopefully, not _excessive_ motion.

I think the thing that's been missed in this discussion is that many of these "new ideas" and "goals" are new ways of _looking_ at skating, and objectives to shoot for, not necessarily a totally "new" way of doing the motion itself. Besides reading articles and watching videos, I would think that the most effective thing would be for each individual skiier to work with these concepts and take or leave those things that help them go faster. Thus, you can have people who are equally (or almost so) very fast, but with definite technique differences that defy "the rules", regardless of who is setting them or analyzing them!

go ski!!
;- )
Chris
guilty of more than my fair share of analysis. I really should take my own advice, eh?
Ken Roberts wrote:
So point me at one video of World Cup skier in an actual race doing V1 up a
hill who is not violating the "absolutely no shoulder rotation or shoulder
tilt" in the New Skate articles? (and preferably one that's less than 10 MB
download).

Chris Cline wrote
If you watch WC videos, you will see a lot of powerful
poling, but not a lot of upper body movement in terms of
direction or level changing (weaving & bobbing).


I mostly agree with you about V2, but I'm not seeing the evidence of quiet
upper body for V1 (offset, paddle dance) in World Cup races. Looks to me
like the World Cup racers these days tend to have bit less upper body motion
than in the mid-1990's, but the shoulder rotation and tilt are still clearly
there, notably in the Carl Swenson video clip on JanneG's website.

Ken







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New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing
--0-1261782672-1071776569=:60496
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

DIVI said "not a lot" of upper body movement, not "absolutely no shoulder rotatation or tilt."  Skiing is not robotic repetition of motion, and there is definitely going to be variation in what a skiier looks like depending on how they have adapted a technique to their build and conditioning, how steep the hill, how long into a race, what they had for breakfast, etc., etc., etc.  /DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVThe "no upper body movement" goal is a pedantic objective (if you want to get pedantic) that skiiers should (or could) keep in mind as an "antidote" to excessive shoulder rotation.  I know that as I ski up a steep hill, I'm telling myself "keep your shoulders straight" and trying for that, but I know that there is some rotation going on.  Just hopefully, not _excessive_ motion.BR/DIV
DIVI think the thing that's been missed in this discussion is that many of these "new ideas" and "goals" are new ways of _looking_ at skating, and objectives to shoot for, not necessarily a totally "new" way of doing the motion itself.  Besides reading articles and watching videos, I would think that the most effective thing would be for each individual skiier to work with these concepts and take or leave those things that help them go faster.  Thus, you can have people who are equally (or almost so) very fast, but with definite technique differences that defy "the rules", regardless of who is setting them or analyzing them!/DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVgo ski!!/DIV
DIV;- )/DIV
DIVChris/DIV
DIVguilty of more than my fair share of analysis.  I really should take my own advice, eh?BRBIKen Roberts >/I/B wrote:/DIV
BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"So point me at one video of World Cup skier in an actual race doing V1 up aBRhill who is not violating the "absolutely no shoulder rotation or shoulderBRtilt" in the New Skate articles? (and preferably one that's less than 10 MBBRdownload).BRBRChris Cline wroteBR> If you watch WC videos, you will see a lot of powerfulBR> poling, but not a lot of upper body movement in terms ofBR> direction or level changing (weaving & bobbing).BRBRI mostly agree with you about V2, but I'm not seeing the evidence of quietBRupper body for V1 (offset, paddle dance) in World Cup races. Looks to meBRlike the World Cup racers these days tend to have bit less upper body motionBRthan in the mid-1990's, but the shoulder rotation and tilt are still clearlyBRthere, notably in the Carl Swenson video clip on JanneG's
website.BRBRKenBRBRBRBRBRBR/BLOCKQUOTEphr SIZE=1
Do you Yahoo!?br
a href="http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=21260/*http://photos.yahoo.com"New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing/a
--0-1261782672-1071776569=:60496--




  #9  
Old December 18th 03, 10:40 PM
Jeff Potter
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Default what I got from the New Skate

What I got from the New Skate...is a thrill!

I first saw it at the Vasa and reported about it here. I think this was before anyone else was talking about it. Awhile afterwards the first NS articles started coming out.

I was doing the short classic event and the lead skaters came by me using a technique that I'd never seen before. It was like a different sport. It was very quiet and easy-looking. The feet were 'swimming' calmly. The hands were just kind of flicking. The body was tilted forward, head first down the trail. It was like they were just watching the scenery as the rest of what they were doing took care of itself. It seemed pretty nice---smooth, quiet, fast.

About 10 minutes later the first big pack of top regional skiers came by, laboring, looking totally different, doing the 'marching marching' style, upright, with big arm actions and thrusting leg action, going MUCH slower.

These were longtime XC vets and worldclass athletes in closely-related sports like canoeracing and bikeracing. I admitted the winners were somewhat more fit for skiing but not THAT much more, not HARDLY more. Their different, FAR better tech was giving them free speed. It was like two different sports taking place. I determined to learn what they were doing at that time. I like free speed.

I notice that Trond Nystad, current head coach, won that race.

--

Jeff Potter
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  #10  
Old December 22nd 03, 08:44 PM
laxer
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Default what I got from the New Skate

(C) Quiet Upper Body
I became a big convert to this concept -- preached it on this

newsgroup --
argued against anybody who tried to distract us from directing all

movements
into _forward_ motion. Practiced it for hours, felt how cool it was

to be
so strong and dynamic with my legs and so quiet and stable above, at

the
same time. And I still think those quiet upper body hours were an

excellent
training and learning phase for me.


How is having an active upper body not forward motion? you say it is
really good to be strong and dynamic with legs and quiet in the upper
body. imagine how much faster you could go if you used your upperbody
effectively, utilizing your abs, and not just your
triceps/arm/shoulder muscles.

(E) the Old skate -- what was wrong
I had lots of doubts about things in the old dryland training video, so when
I read Vordenberg's criticisms, by immediate reaction was, "Yes, that's what
I was thinking too!" I never could see the physics of NKT and "complete"
weight commitment for _skating_. And I always thought "length of glide" was
a false clue for speed (though fun when not racing), so I loved Vordenberg's
notorious slogan about "a gliding ski . . . "


Ooooo Vordenberg came up with a "notorious slogan" refrencing how a
gliding ski is continually slowing down. that would probably be the
reason that all of the elite skiers have been skiing at a high tempo
for a fairly long time. just cause he repakaged it doesnt make it
special. the "physics of the NKT" wasn't really anything special as
far as i have been able to tell. it was just a way of trying to get
people to fully comit their weight. In essance it was a visual clue.
the reason you want full weight committment is that it is free energy.
just try stepping from one ski fully onto the other; you get some
ammout of glide without having done anything really. free energy.
-laxer
 




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