skaters + snowmobiles

Yesterday I found a special place for ski-skating in Utah. It had
interesting + fun trail design, the best mountain views, perfect grooming,
plenty of snow-depth -- and that wonderful mix of evergreen and aspen trees
which is quintessential Wasatch forest skiing for me. Best groomed-track
cross-country skiing experience I've had in Utah.

Daniel's Summit.
But that's a snowmobiling place. Walking to the start of the trail, I went
past an army of red snow machines parked ready for rental.

But on that perfect sunny Tuesday, there were almost as many skiers as
snowmobiler. All the snowmobilers I encountered were polite. And from the
looks of the tracks I could see, seemed like lots of the aggressive wilder
sledding gets done off the groomed trail -- not where I'd usually be
skating anyway.

Next day I thought I'd try some other snowmobile-shared trails on another
perfect sunny day. I drove out east past Kamas on Rt 150 to the end of the
snow-plowing. There they were in the parking area: Snowmobiles with their
noise and fumes. So of course I waved and said, "Great day to be out here".
I skated south up to Soapstone Pass and back, and then east on the Mirror
Lake Highway up to the Upper Provo Bridge. While out there skiing, I counted
more skiers than snowmobiles. And again, all the sledders I encountered were
polite. I tried to wave to each of them (just like I do with cars when I'm
out rollerskiing and skating on the roads). I didn't catch that area on a
good grooming day, but still it was overall a positive skiing experience.

What do the majority of both ski-skaters and snowmobilers have in common? I
think it includes:
* we like getting out in the snow and having fun and seeing the winter
beauty.
* we like to have groomed trails available.

Of course there's also some important differences between the groups -- but
maybe sometimes it's worth learning how to manage those in cooperative
usage.

Ken

P.S. I don't think an out-of-state skier can just drive to Daniel's Summit
randomly and expect to have a fun skiing experience. Some ideas:
* check The Utah Nordic Alliance website for info + reports:
http://www.utahnordic.com
* Difficulty: Daniel's Summit would be "advanced" / "most difficult"
terrain by the standards of most cross-country ski centers. Bring strong
legs and solid downhill skills, there's lots of hill to climb, and get back
down.
* Altitude: Much of the skiing there is over 2500 meters / 8000 ft
altitude -- so if like me you're coming from sea-level, don't try it on the
first day of your visit. Wait a few days to get acclimatized to altitude.
* Timing: unless you like being around much faster + heavier things with
engine noise and diesel smell, go there mid-week, or maybe try very early on
a weekend morning.
* try to get there just after they groomed -- call ahead and ask. I called
the Store at the phone number at the bottom of this web page:
http://www.danielssummit.com
________________________________________

If snowmobilers ruin the XC trails by riding on them some XC skiers get real
mad.
One time someone set a trap for the snowmobile.
http://www.pasty.com/discus/messages/713/736.html#PN

JK

I will add my two cents in here.

There are numerous nicely groomed snowmobile trails around Colorado. I
am not entirely clear on why the snowmobilers want groomed riding, but
have been happy to take advantage of it.

We have four areas nearby that are groomed by various snowmobile clubs.
Before we go up, I check:

http://www.sledcity.com/states/trail...his_state_id=5

for grooming reports. Usually we go in the morning, and see no, or only
a few snowmobilers. They seem to arrive around noon.

A nice way to explore new terrain after skiing all the Nordic resorts.
mark

In article .com,
wrote:
A nice way to explore new terrain after skiing all the Nordic resorts.

I run my dogsled on snowmobile trails and occasionally ski
on them, as well (I allow a snowmobile trail across my
land), and there are a couple of things to keep in mind, I
think. The first thing, at least around here, is that on
weekday nights and on weekends from the afternoon on, there
are drunk snowmobilers on the trails. Sometimes most of
them are drunk, and they cause accidents. One of the worst
last year was when a drunk hit a dogsled team so hard that
the musher's boots were literally knocked off his feet, and
the snowmobiler didn't stop, leaving the musher alone in the
woods in sub-zero temperatures (fortunately he was found and
rescued by someone who came along a bit later). The other
thing is that at night even sober snowmobilers can mistake a
headlamp for the headlight on another machine, and they'll
make some assumptions about how fast you're moving. That's
caused some accidents, too. So, I only use snowmobile
trails in the mornings.

The trails are great, especially the groomed ones, and I
think it's worth cultivating a good relationship with
snowmobile clubs/services, but boy there are some dangerous
yahoos out there.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Let us develop a kind of dangerous unselfishness -- ML King

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 wrote:

There are numerous nicely groomed snowmobile trails around Colorado. I
am not entirely clear on why the snowmobilers want groomed riding, but
have been happy to take advantage of it.

From what I've seen, a trail groomed only by short snowmobiles gets
incredibly bumpy. The grooming sleds they use are as long as 2 or 3
continuous snowmobiles and make a much, much, much smoother trail.

-Mitch

"Ken Roberts" wrote in message
...
* Timing: unless you like being around much faster + heavier things
with
engine noise and diesel smell...

Most snowmobile engines are two-stroke, burning a mixture of gas and oil. A
typical two-stroke engine will pollute more in a day of operation than a
well-maintained car will in a ... year! When a snowmobile passes by you, the
foul emissions smell lingers around for the next fifteen minutes (it seems
to me that two-stroke engine smell is even worse in the winter when the air
is cold and dry). This, combined with the fact that snowmobile riders are
not accostumed to meet skiers on trails and may not be pleased with their
presence, have prevented me from skiing on their trails, whatever nice and
smooth they are.

BarryT

"BarryT" wrote in message
...
"Ken Roberts" wrote in message
...
* Timing: unless you like being around much faster + heavier things
with
engine noise and diesel smell...

Most snowmobile engines are two-stroke, burning a mixture of gas and oil.
A
typical two-stroke engine will pollute more in a day of operation than a
well-maintained car will in a ... year! When a snowmobile passes by you,
the
foul emissions smell lingers around for the next fifteen minutes (it seems
to me that two-stroke engine smell is even worse in the winter when the
air
is cold and dry). This, combined with the fact that snowmobile riders are
not accostumed to meet skiers on trails and may not be pleased with their
presence, have prevented me from skiing on their trails, whatever nice and
smooth they are.

BarryT

To me, even worse is how a single snowmobile can ruin a huge area's peace
and quiet. The noise influence covers a much larger area, although is
shorter lived, than the smell factor. Nothing is more irritating to me than
skiing out in the middle of nowhere and hearing the damn things. But I also
think, like all machines, they are useful and I have owned them and used
them. It's just that I wish there were more areas that were not multi use -
single use for skiing. To me Norway represents the ideal in that regard -
skiing takes precedence and it is very easy to find peace and quiet in the
backcountry.. Snowmobiles are allowed only on designated trails. In a lot
of places, especially in the western US and Alaska, snowmobiles are
essentially allowed anywhere unless specifically not - just the opposite to
Norway.

Cam

Snowmobile trails can be great places to ski, especially if they are
groomed. But remember ... just as with ski trails it costs money to
groom snowmobile trails. So if you ski on snowmobile trails that are
groomed by snowmobile clubs, don't be a free-loader. Join the
snowmobile club or give them money for using the trails that they
provide you. Doing this will get you and the sport of xc skiing more
respect from the sno-goers.

Originally Posted by Camilo

"BarryT" wrote in message
...
"Ken Roberts" wrote in message
...
* Timing: unless you like being around much faster + heavier things
with
engine noise and diesel smell...

Most snowmobile engines are two-stroke, burning a mixture of gas and oil.
A
typical two-stroke engine will pollute more in a day of operation than a
well-maintained car will in a ... year! When a snowmobile passes by you,
the
foul emissions smell lingers around for the next fifteen minutes (it seems
to me that two-stroke engine smell is even worse in the winter when the
air
is cold and dry). This, combined with the fact that snowmobile riders are
not accostumed to meet skiers on trails and may not be pleased with their
presence, have prevented me from skiing on their trails, whatever nice and
smooth they are.

BarryT

To me, even worse is how a single snowmobile can ruin a huge area's peace
and quiet. The noise influence covers a much larger area, although is
shorter lived, than the smell factor. Nothing is more irritating to me than
skiing out in the middle of nowhere and hearing the damn things. But I also
think, like all machines, they are useful and I have owned them and used
them. It's just that I wish there were more areas that were not multi use -
single use for skiing. To me Norway represents the ideal in that regard -
skiing takes precedence and it is very easy to find peace and quiet in the
backcountry.. Snowmobiles are allowed only on designated trails. In a lot
of places, especially in the western US and Alaska, snowmobiles are
essentially allowed anywhere unless specifically not - just the opposite to
Norway.

Cam

I hope the next time you gripe about how bad the trail conditions are where you ski you will remember that many x-c ski experiences are enhanced by people like me pulling a drag through the woods at 5AM on a cold dark winter morning just so you can have a quality skiing experience. I do it with a snowmobile. My "customers" love the whine - they know they are getting the "virgin track" experience. I serve biathlon eventers, school kids, housewives who wouldn't break trail or "backcountry" ski, and even many showshoers. These are people who want to ski on groomed trails with or without a set track. I provide both. Our town also offers a lot of ungroomed trails.

For information's sake, my groomer is a Ski-Doo Skandic SWT (super wide track) which has a 550 cc fan cooled two stroke motor and pulls a 4 foot wide Tidd Tech drag groomer. It burns 1 gallon of gas per hour, burns a gallon of oil per season (100 hours of operation). To groom 5 miles of trail 10 feet wide and set a track takes me about an hour and a half.The only 4 stroke utility snowmobile is the Alpina, a much larger machine with a 4 cylinder motor that costs more than twice as much as the SKandic.

The's no question the 2 stroke engine stinks. However, just like the auto industry, the snowmobile industry is adpoting new clean air standards for two stroke machines and all manufacturers are introducing cleaner 4 stroke machines. As older snowmobile are replaced, the whole fleet out there will get cleaner, just like the auto industry. There may be a problem - relatively low cost groomers may disappear, There isn't any 4 stroke Skandic SWT on the horizon yet. It will require a very different cooling system than recreational sled currently employ. When the time comes, I may have to replace it by a 4 stroke ATV with tracks instead of wheels. But I'll be sure it whines......

By the way - in New York state there are laws against tresspass on private property and state trails are signed for permitted uses. There are a lot of snowmobile trails that are groomed by local snowmobile clubs with state money. I wouldn't ski on them for safety reasons. Likewise, there are plenty of non-motorized recreational trails both groomed and ungroomed that are prohibited to snowmobiles. There is plenty of space here to find "peace and quiet in the backcountry." Just don't expect it to be groomed.

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005, TheGroomer wrote:

By the way - in New York state there are laws against tresspass on
private property and state trails are signed for permitted uses.

Fat lot of good that does. I own several km's of trails in New York State
that are regularly trespassed upon by both snowmobiles and ATV's. Posting
signs doesn't help. Standing out there and catching them in the act and
then chasing them off doesn't help. I chased one a*****e off once only to
have him back again 5 mins later!


There
are a lot of snowmobile trails that are groomed by local snowmobile
clubs with state money.

Yes, there are some near me. Very nice grooming equipment and very nicely
groomed trails. I fail to understand how the local sledders can organize
such a nice service and the local skiers can't. Skiers vastly outnumber
sledders but are too independently minded to do anything that useful. It's
like the difference between bees and hummingbirds.


I wouldn't ski on them for safety reasons.

I haven't, yet, but probably will some day. Others around here do. The
word seems to be don't do it after dark, and get the heck out of the way
when you hear them coming.


Likewise, there are plenty of non-motorized recreational trails both
groomed and ungroomed that are prohibited to snowmobiles.

We have those, too. It used to be that they were regularly trashed by
both snowmobiles and ATV's. In recent years, particularly since they began
grooming their own trails, this seems to be happening less and less, except
as noted above on private lands.


There is
plenty of space here to find "peace and quiet in the backcountry."
Just don't expect it to be groomed.

Now I'm really curious. Where in New York are you?

-Mitch (near Ithaca)