double pole %

So i was out on a long classic ski yesterday and found myself double poling
up longer easy inclines and it got me to wondering, should I be doing this?
I"m prepping for a 52k classic race next weekend and my question is, what %
of the race should i double pole? I'm a faster citizen racer that's faily
experienced in races. Is a long classic race 80% double pole? Surely icey
conditions make the race more double pole as its just easier.

any ideas?
JKal.

The CatSki site is not truly double pole technique. While it is
interesting to ponder, I don't think that was what JKal was asking.
As skis have gotten faster, people have been double poling (DP) higher
and higher percentage of the time. On an average course, you may be
double poling more than 3/4 of the course. As long as it's faster
than striding/kick-double pole, it's probably the most energy
efficient technique. You're consuming significantly less O2 double
poling than in the other 2 techniques. The main thing to be aware of
in a longer race, though, is that if you're not used to doing long DP
workouts, it can strain your wrists and give you tendonitis. So build
up to it, but if you're comfortable with long DP workouts, it may very
well be that, depending on the hillyness of the course, you may easily
do 80% or more double pole. Good luck in your upcoming race.

MT Nordic wrote:
The CatSki site is not truly double pole technique. While it is
interesting to ponder, I don't think that was what JKal was asking.
As skis have gotten faster, people have been double poling (DP) higher
and higher percentage of the time. On an average course, you may be
double poling more than 3/4 of the course. As long as it's faster
than striding/kick-double pole, it's probably the most energy
efficient technique. You're consuming significantly less O2 double
poling than in the other 2 techniques. The main thing to be aware of
in a longer race, though, is that if you're not used to doing long DP
workouts, it can strain your wrists and give you tendonitis. So build
up to it, but if you're comfortable with long DP workouts, it may very
well be that, depending on the hillyness of the course, you may easily
do 80% or more double pole. Good luck in your upcoming race.

I think this is the main reason modern classic world cup courses are
hillier than they used to be:

In order to force the skiers to vary their technique, the world cup
courses in Holmenkollen have almost zero near-flat parts, it is either
up or down all the way.

Terje

--
- Terje.Mathisen at tmsw.no
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"

I"m with you MT Nordic. I did some of the long easy grade climbs using
regular classic style and seemed very winded at the end, weak, tired. But,
double poling, no worries. To quote you "As long as it's faster than
striding/kick-double pole, it's probably the most energy efficient
technique. You're consuming significantly less O2 double poling than in the
other 2 techniques"

I'd like to see some actual data, but right now it just feels that's that
way it is.

JKal.


"MT Nordic" wrote in message
...
The CatSki site is not truly double pole technique. While it is
interesting to ponder, I don't think that was what JKal was asking.
As skis have gotten faster, people have been double poling (DP) higher
and higher percentage of the time. On an average course, you may be
double poling more than 3/4 of the course. As long as it's faster
than striding/kick-double pole, it's probably the most energy
efficient technique. You're consuming significantly less O2 double
poling than in the other 2 techniques. The main thing to be aware of
in a longer race, though, is that if you're not used to doing long DP
workouts, it can strain your wrists and give you tendonitis. So build
up to it, but if you're comfortable with long DP workouts, it may very
well be that, depending on the hillyness of the course, you may easily
do 80% or more double pole. Good luck in your upcoming race.

Do you have the Olympic Medical Commission's x-c ski book from 2002?
They discuss relative energy usage there for classic and skate.

Gene

On Sun, 24 Jan 2010 21:07:03 -0500
"Jeff and Stephanie Kalember" wrote:

I"m with you MT Nordic. I did some of the long easy grade climbs
using regular classic style and seemed very winded at the end, weak,
tired. But, double poling, no worries. To quote you "As long as
it's faster than striding/kick-double pole, it's probably the most
energy efficient technique. You're consuming significantly less O2
double poling than in the other 2 techniques"

I'd like to see some actual data, but right now it just feels that's
that way it is.

JKal.


"MT Nordic" wrote in message
...
The CatSki site is not truly double pole technique. While it is
interesting to ponder, I don't think that was what JKal was asking.
As skis have gotten faster, people have been double poling (DP)
higher and higher percentage of the time. On an average course,
you may be double poling more than 3/4 of the course. As long as
it's faster than striding/kick-double pole, it's probably the most
energy efficient technique. You're consuming significantly less O2
double poling than in the other 2 techniques. The main thing to be
aware of in a longer race, though, is that if you're not used to
doing long DP workouts, it can strain your wrists and give you
tendonitis. So build up to it, but if you're comfortable with long
DP workouts, it may very well be that, depending on the hillyness
of the course, you may easily do 80% or more double pole. Good
luck in your upcoming race.

JP - an old schooler showed me Passganging a couple years ago which
can be explained as Kick, Kick, Double Pole. It's similar to what Dale
is doing but Dale never throws himself into a Double Pole in his Cat1
style. When we get snow again, I'm going to fool around with the Cat1.
I think it might be VERY useful. I think it's cool that Dale commits
himself to Classic & innovates.

JK - The Noquey is on a course which has it all, and the HUGE climbs
are primarily truly in the front half! (the climb out of Deer Lake is
singularly Matterhornish, Granite Point is a whole series of fun and I
can barely stand up after that onslaught) Thing to remember is to
kick with the legs for the first half, saving the arms (start with
plenty of kickwax) and when you cross the start line at the half at
Forestville, then you can unleash those DP guns upon the second half
descent of 1,000 infamous feet (it's practically a tuck). (heh heh)

If you wanted to get tricky, you might overwax for kick, and bring a
scraper. Light up the first half, then take off your skis and scrape
most of your kickwax off at Forestville aid station (half start line)
and kill it w/your DP as your bring it home to the wooden dome. I've
thought about this, and I've even brought the scraper. I just couldnt
bring myself to a halt to try it. How long could it take? 60 second if
you were slow? 20 seconds if you hurried? I know that I've LOST 8 to
10 minutes in the second half...

So I guess the Noquey is 50% DP in my theoretical estimate. I'd fool
with the Cat1 to see where it might fit in. What gets me at the Noquey
is burning out my kicking skills before Forestville and then burning
up my DP skills by the finish.

On Jan 25, 3:48*pm, Dell Todd wrote:
JP - an old schooler showed me Passganging a couple years ago which
can be explained as Kick, Kick, Double Pole.

Hi Dell... Interesting description. I thought that passgang was
striding and poling on the same side. --Left kick, left pole. It's
kinda crazy and hard to do but I've seen it almost happening in
beginners. I hadn't heard it applied to a DP move.

It's similar to what Dale
is doing but Dale never throws himself into a Double Pole in his Cat1
style.

Yeah, it's not a gungho DP.

When we get snow again, I'm going to fool around with the Cat1.
I think it might be VERY useful.

Yeah, I'm going to try it, too! I've always thought of it for touring
but now I'll shift into a race mode and see how it goes.

I think it's cool that Dale commits
himself to Classic & innovates.

JK - The Noquey is on a course which has it all, and the HUGE climbs
are primarily truly in the front half! (the climb out of Deer Lake is
singularly Matterhornish, Granite Point is a whole series of fun and I
can barely stand up after that onslaught) *Thing to remember is to
kick with the legs for the first half, saving the arms (start with
plenty of kickwax) and when you cross the start line at the half at
Forestville, then you can unleash those DP guns upon the second half
descent of 1,000 infamous feet (it's practically a tuck). (heh heh)

Leave enough on for a few herringbones, though! They're in there,
aren't they? I hope I'm not dreaming...

[ ] ...What gets me at the Noquey
is burning out my kicking skills before Forestville and then burning
up my DP skills by the finish.

Sounds like a perfect race! : )

--JP

I'm with you on the course Dell - and that's my plan, kick as much as
possible first half, DP second half. In 2006 that's exactly what i did
after a TERRIBLE boxed in start and working my way through 30-40 others.
Really I'm just starting to figure out classic I think after 7 years of
working at it, and without racing I just don't know what's efficient and
whats not. You can go hard on your own, but you REALLY don't know how fast
you're going until you're in a pack in a race.

Race course snow should be interesting - total thaw in Marquette with rain
last weekend. Freezing up solid now. Hitting single digits by Wed, then
lake effect snow (CHANCE) this week. Race day temps of 16-19F. Gonna be
ice? or slow cold powder in those tracks? Hope the first!!

JKal.


"Dell Todd" wrote in message
...
JP - an old schooler showed me Passganging a couple years ago which
can be explained as Kick, Kick, Double Pole. It's similar to what Dale
is doing but Dale never throws himself into a Double Pole in his Cat1
style. When we get snow again, I'm going to fool around with the Cat1.
I think it might be VERY useful. I think it's cool that Dale commits
himself to Classic & innovates.

JK - The Noquey is on a course which has it all, and the HUGE climbs
are primarily truly in the front half! (the climb out of Deer Lake is
singularly Matterhornish, Granite Point is a whole series of fun and I
can barely stand up after that onslaught) Thing to remember is to
kick with the legs for the first half, saving the arms (start with
plenty of kickwax) and when you cross the start line at the half at
Forestville, then you can unleash those DP guns upon the second half
descent of 1,000 infamous feet (it's practically a tuck). (heh heh)

If you wanted to get tricky, you might overwax for kick, and bring a
scraper. Light up the first half, then take off your skis and scrape
most of your kickwax off at Forestville aid station (half start line)
and kill it w/your DP as your bring it home to the wooden dome. I've
thought about this, and I've even brought the scraper. I just couldnt
bring myself to a halt to try it. How long could it take? 60 second if
you were slow? 20 seconds if you hurried? I know that I've LOST 8 to
10 minutes in the second half...

So I guess the Noquey is 50% DP in my theoretical estimate. I'd fool
with the Cat1 to see where it might fit in. What gets me at the Noquey
is burning out my kicking skills before Forestville and then burning
up my DP skills by the finish.