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alpine bindings and AT boots



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 10th 05, 06:04 PM
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In article ,
VtSkier wrote:

wrote:
In article ,
Booker C. Bense
bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Apr.04.05@telemark. slac.stanford.edu
wrote:



Also your "test" performed at home mentioned in your reply
to my post regarding adjustments was not a test. You
determined that you could get your AT boots into your
bindings. You did not observe the forward pressure indicator
to insure that forward pressure was correct and you did not
have the release function checked by a reputable ski
mechanic.


Yes... but I've been doing like that for ages. 36 years of skiing and
the last 25 without a mechanic. Actually after I broke my former skis I
took the bindings in question to the authorised ski service and they
confirmed the bindings still worked fine. So I attached them to the next
pair of skis and they never caused any problems...

TA
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  #13  
Old April 12th 05, 04:48 PM
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In article ,
VtSkier wrote:

Titus,
Are you admitting that you didn't check the forward
pressure indicator to see if it was correct? I rest
my case.


Forward pressure indicator?
You mean the indicator on the front binding???
Of course I did check that. I did set the usual settings (plus 0.5) and
then I tested that (but in the home static environment :-).
Later on in the mountains I realised the bindings released every time
when I was skiing through the crud on the high speed...

TA
  #14  
Old April 12th 05, 05:23 PM
VtSkier
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wrote:
In article ,
VtSkier wrote:


Titus,
Are you admitting that you didn't check the forward
pressure indicator to see if it was correct? I rest
my case.



Forward pressure indicator?
You mean the indicator on the front binding???
Of course I did check that. I did set the usual settings (plus 0.5) and
then I tested that (but in the home static environment :-).
Later on in the mountains I realised the bindings released every time
when I was skiing through the crud on the high speed...

TA

There are three indicators on most bindings in general and
on Markers in particular. The one you are noting above is
the DIN indicator for the toepiece. There is a similar
indicator for the heel. There is also an adjustment for
how much pressure the heel piece imparts to the boot sole
and so the toepiece. Part of this adjuster is usually an
indicator that tells you when the adjustment is correct
when observed WITH THE BOOT IN PLACE. For a Marker step-in
this is a large screw head near the bottom and rear of the
toepiece. This screw head needs to be flush with the housing
when forward pressure is correct. On the MRR, with its two
large springs on either side, I don't know for sure where
the adjuster is, but it's there someplace.

If a DIN setting of 5.0 works with your alpine boots, it
would be OK for your AT boots. However, it may be too
light for anything except cruisers and all else being
correct, this may be the source of your troubles. Static
testing of bindings as you describe is OK to test function,
but there is no replacement for proper testing by a
mechanic with the proper equipment. There are too many
variables. For instance the length of the boot sole
is as important as skier weight and ability for release
setting. It's a function of lever arm length.

You have described the DIN indicator on the toepiece and
asked me if it's the forward pressure indicator.

Please, for the sake of your legs, go to a shop and have
these things adjusted correctly and in the process, learn
how to adjust them for your different boots.

VtSKier
  #15  
Old April 12th 05, 10:18 PM
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In article ,
VtSkier wrote:


There are three indicators on most bindings in general and
on Markers in particular. The one you are noting above is
the DIN indicator for the toepiece. There is a similar
indicator for the heel.


Right.

There is also an adjustment for
how much pressure the heel piece imparts to the boot sole
and so the toepiece. Part of this adjuster is usually an
indicator that tells you when the adjustment is correct
when observed WITH THE BOOT IN PLACE. For a Marker step-in
this is a large screw head near the bottom and rear of the
toepiece. This screw head needs to be flush with the housing
when forward pressure is correct. On the MRR, with its two
large springs on either side, I don't know for sure where
the adjuster is, but it's there someplace.


I cannot see anything like that. Nor in front neither in rear binding...


If a DIN setting of 5.0 works with your alpine boots, it
would be OK for your AT boots. However, it may be too
light for anything except cruisers and all else being
correct, this may be the source of your troubles. Static
testing of bindings as you describe is OK to test function,
but there is no replacement for proper testing by a
mechanic with the proper equipment. There are too many
variables. For instance the length of the boot sole
is as important as skier weight and ability for release
setting. It's a function of lever arm length.


I usually set the bindings to 6/7. Sometimes more - up to 9. I know my
bindings and I know what setting should be set in which conditions.
They call it an 'experience'.
How can a machine (which never seen any slopes) test the bindings??
'There are too many variables' The machine may only check if the
bindings are compatible with the standards (DIN). Of course in a shop
they ask you about your skiing ability, weight,..., they are taking your
boots, and so on. But the result is approximate only...

I used that (and other) bindings for years. The only thing is all of
them had the standard (alpine) sole. And there was my mistake,
presumably...

You have described the DIN indicator on the toepiece and
asked me if it's the forward pressure indicator.


Because there is no any indicators others than DIN indicator in my
bindings..

TA
  #16  
Old April 12th 05, 10:52 PM
VtSkier
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wrote:
In article ,
VtSkier wrote:



There are three indicators on most bindings in general and
on Markers in particular. The one you are noting above is
the DIN indicator for the toepiece. There is a similar
indicator for the heel.



Right.

There is also an adjustment for
how much pressure the heel piece imparts to the boot sole
and so the toepiece. Part of this adjuster is usually an
indicator that tells you when the adjustment is correct
when observed WITH THE BOOT IN PLACE. For a Marker step-in
this is a large screw head near the bottom and rear of the
toepiece. This screw head needs to be flush with the housing
when forward pressure is correct. On the MRR, with its two
large springs on either side, I don't know for sure where
the adjuster is, but it's there someplace.


I cannot see anything like that. Nor in front neither in rear binding...


Like I said, it's there someplace. On the heel (rear binding).
I went looking for a picture of this binding but apparently
Marker is not bringing it into the US any more. It's not shown
on their website. Any other pictures I could find were too small.

If a DIN setting of 5.0 works with your alpine boots, it
would be OK for your AT boots. However, it may be too
light for anything except cruisers and all else being
correct, this may be the source of your troubles. Static
testing of bindings as you describe is OK to test function,
but there is no replacement for proper testing by a
mechanic with the proper equipment. There are too many
variables. For instance the length of the boot sole
is as important as skier weight and ability for release
setting. It's a function of lever arm length.


I usually set the bindings to 6/7. Sometimes more - up to 9. I know my
bindings and I know what setting should be set in which conditions.
They call it an 'experience'.
How can a machine (which never seen any slopes) test the bindings??
'There are too many variables' The machine may only check if the
bindings are compatible with the standards (DIN). Of course in a shop
they ask you about your skiing ability, weight,..., they are taking your
boots, and so on. But the result is approximate only...


Actually the results will be "average", not approximate. And
there is nothing that says you can't reset the DIN scale on
your bindings based on "experience". I do this, but I get the
binding tested every year to guarantee to me that it will work
as advertised.

I used that (and other) bindings for years. The only thing is all of
them had the standard (alpine) sole. And there was my mistake,
presumably...


In one post, you said that you had "moved the binding from
one ski to another" or something like that. In other words,
you mounted the bindings yourself. How did you set the boot
sole length for your alpine boots once you had the bindings
on the skis?

You have described the DIN indicator on the toepiece and
asked me if it's the forward pressure indicator.


Because there is no any indicators others than DIN indicator in my
bindings..

TA


Well there is, it's just that your "experience" isn't enough
to discover how your binding works. As I pointed out earlier,
my AT boots work fine with both my Marker step-ins (same toe,
different heel from yours) and my Tyrolia step ins, except
that I need to adjust forward pressure, which you might be
calling "boot sole length adjustment" because the boot soles
of each pair of boots is different.

A binding that does not have the forward pressure tight enough
will act like the DIN setting is too low. My experience for this
is helping out people on the hill who have rental equipment
which has not been adjusted correctly by the shop which
rented to them, or perhaps they have mis-adjusted the binding
itself inadvertently because the rental binding adjustment is
so easy to use. Also, I used to work in a rental shop myself.
We used a chart to set forward pressure set up for the boots
that we rented. It was shop policy to only check boot fit for
boots brought in by customers. My personal policy was to check
each and every boot for proper forward pressure. You see, the
renter could get the equipment from the shop, board the gondola
a get the top of the mountain with skis which don't fit the
boots he/she has on and have no idea how to fix the problem.
  #17  
Old April 13th 05, 01:30 AM
lal_truckee
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VtSkier wrote:

Because there is no any indicators others than DIN indicator in my
bindings..

TA



Well there is,


You may be looking for something like another DIN indicator, which you
won't find - nothing like that.

The idea is that when the binding length is properly set, the boot sole
is slightly longer than the toe-heel distance of the binding - when you
click into the binding the heel piece moves rearward slightly to
compensate. How much it moves rearward is carefully controlled, for the
release functions depend on this pressure. So the manufacturers put a
mark on one piece of the heel binding and a range on the other piece and
when the boot is clicked in the mark must be within the range. This can
be as complex as actual grooves etched into the metal (or molded into
the plastic) or as simple as a particular screw or rivet lining up with
another - different for every binding and a function of design, not of
DIN requirements. If the heel piece doesn't move into the proper preload
range the binding release function is compromised.
  #18  
Old April 14th 05, 09:59 PM
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In article ,
VtSkier wrote:

wrote:
In article ,
VtSkier wrote:

[...]

There is also an adjustment for
how much pressure the heel piece imparts to the boot sole
and so the toepiece. Part of this adjuster is usually an
indicator that tells you when the adjustment is correct
when observed WITH THE BOOT IN PLACE. For a Marker step-in
this is a large screw head near the bottom and rear of the
toepiece. This screw head needs to be flush with the housing
when forward pressure is correct. On the MRR, with its two
large springs on either side, I don't know for sure where
the adjuster is, but it's there someplace.


I cannot see anything like that. Nor in front neither in rear binding...


Like I said, it's there someplace. On the heel (rear binding).
I went looking for a picture of this binding but apparently
Marker is not bringing it into the US any more. It's not shown
on their website. Any other pictures I could find were too small.


Oooops. Shame on me.



I used that (and other) bindings for years. The only thing is all of
them had the standard (alpine) sole. And there was my mistake,
presumably...


In one post, you said that you had "moved the binding from
one ski to another" or something like that. In other words,
you mounted the bindings yourself. How did you set the boot
sole length for your alpine boots once you had the bindings
on the skis?

You have described the DIN indicator on the toepiece and
asked me if it's the forward pressure indicator.


Because there is no any indicators others than DIN indicator in my
bindings..



Well there is, it's just that your "experience" isn't enough
to discover how your binding works. As I pointed out earlier,
my AT boots work fine with both my Marker step-ins (same toe,
different heel from yours) and my Tyrolia step ins, except
that I need to adjust forward pressure, which you might be
calling "boot sole length adjustment" because the boot soles
of each pair of boots is different.

[...]


I am so sorry. You are absolutely right.
I know there was that 'forward pressure indicator' in Marker Rotamat -
15 years ago. And I used it then. The indicator (actually there were two
of them - on each 'spring') was clearly visible. But it was before the
rotamat step-in era...

In Marker Rotamat Step-Ins the indicators are just 2 tiny notches...

For the last 15 years I had that bindings in every pair of skis (but I
never mounted them myself). And I used almost the same boots (with the
same sole length - always Lange)
And I had just forgotten these indicators/regulators exist...

Moreover you said 'For a Marker step-in this is a large screw head near
the bottom and rear of the toepiece.'
So I was looking for something like that at the toe/front part of the
bindings and still was not able to find anything.
But they are in fact these bolts/screws within the rear springs...

I've just realised what did you mean. And - 'the regulation' took few
seconds...

.... I am rally thinking about seppuku or something like that...

Regards
TA
  #19  
Old April 16th 05, 11:14 AM
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In article ,
Sven Golly wrote:

VtSkier wrote in :

Like I said, it's there someplace. On the heel (rear binding).
I went looking for a picture of this binding but apparently
Marker is not bringing it into the US any more. It's not shown
on their website. Any other pictures I could find were too small.


http://www.voelklfanclub.ru/catalogs..._sc_racing.jpg


Still to small to see anything... But the case is closed.
:-)
BTW I've just visited European, Japanese, and American Marker sites.
They do not offer Rotamats on any market anymore. And those new Markers
are SO ugly.
:-(
Fortunately I switched to Naxos... But I will keep my Rotamats - the
last real Marker binding - in a token of remembrance (sorry for that
strange language - is this still English?)...


TA
 




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