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Stupid helmet question ...



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 17th 07, 03:18 PM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
Mike Clark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 58
Default Stupid helmet question ...

In message
Ace wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:12:06 +0000, Alun Evans
wrote:

On Wed 17 Jan '07 at 12:38 Mike Clark wrote:


Have any resorts collected data on proportions of skiers using helmets
and also the proportions of skiers injured in accidents and whether or
not they were wearing a helmet?


I personally know two head trauma incidents (one with helmet, fine; other,
unconscious), though they were both snow-boarders, which does seem to lend
itself to head-plants.


I've never worn a helmet for skiing or cycling, and am sceptical about
their efficacy. I work on the basis that I've fallen loads of time,
including head plants, and never damaged my head, so the sort of
impact I'd like to protect against is much greater than those I've
experienced. Unfortunately, in the case of massive impact, the level
of protection provided by cycle and ski helmets is woefully
inadequate, as far as I can tell, so I'll either wear a proper helmet,
such as I use(d) for motorcycling, or not bother.

Anyhoo, your sample size is clearly too small to draw conclusions from
- I've personally witnessed dozens of ski and board accidents wear the
head has made contact with sme other surface or object and never seen
any major trauma - doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that in all of
the cases I've witnessed the wearing of a helmet would have provided
no benefit.

I don't want to turn this into a helmet-wars argument, such as used to
come around periodically on the cycling newsgroups (probably still do,
but I've not been active there for years). I would certainly never try
to persuade anyone that they're not a good idea, as long as no-one
tells me that I should wear one;-)


I've now found a study published in JAMA (requires registration)

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/reprint/295/8/919

from a Norwegian study by Sulheim et al 2006 which makes for some
interesting reading since they did attempt to look for confounding
influences in their study.

They concluded overall that helmets did provide protection, but their
data also reveals other factors that were also associated with
increased accident and injury rates. For example they found that for
serious head injuries that snow boarders were more likely to be injured
than alpine skiers who in turn were more likely to be injured than
telemark skiers. Age and ability also seemed to be important in that
teenage and also less experienced people were more likely to be injured.
For example those aged 13-20 made up 25.6% of their control sample
(randomly selected as every 10th person queuing at the bottom lift
stations), but accounted for 42.2% of their severe head injuries. In
contrast those over 20 (64.1%) accounted for 43.5% of severe head
injuries.

The other thing that the study threw up was that those who regarded
themselves as risk takers were more likely to wear a helmet than those
who regarded themselves as cautious skiers.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
" || _`\,_ |__\ \ | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"
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  #12  
Old January 17th 07, 03:37 PM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
MoonMan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 236
Default Stupid helmet question ...

Alun Evans wrote:
On Wed 17 Jan '07 at 14:25 Ace wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:12:06 +0000, Alun Evans
wrote:

On Wed 17 Jan '07 at 12:38 Mike Clark wrote:


Have any resorts collected data on proportions of skiers using
helmets and also the proportions of skiers injured in accidents
and whether or not they were wearing a helmet?

I personally know two head trauma incidents (one with helmet, fine;
other, unconscious), though they were both snow-boarders, which
does seem to lend itself to head-plants.


I've never worn a helmet for skiing or cycling, and am sceptical
about their efficacy. I work on the basis that I've fallen loads of
time, including head plants, and never damaged my head, so the sort
of impact I'd like to protect against is much greater than those I've
experienced.


Indeed. I had the same thoughts, though after a couple of close
scrapes with branches, I decided to give it a try, and it's not too
bad. Nice and toasty when it's cold too.

snip

Anyhoo, your sample size is clearly too small to draw conclusions
from


Indeed, which is why I didn't...

- I've personally witnessed dozens of ski and board accidents wear
the head has made contact with sme other surface or object and never
seen any major trauma - doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that in
all of the cases I've witnessed the wearing of a helmet would have
provided no benefit.

I don't want to turn this into a helmet-wars argument, such as used
to come around periodically on the cycling newsgroups (probably
still do, but I've not been active there for years). I would
certainly never try to persuade anyone that they're not a good idea,
as long as no-one tells me that I should wear one;-)


Well, it's more the legal aspects that should worry you, i.e. when a
resort tells you to wear one, or your insurers do. (Particularly in
the US).

I think it's also the case that FIS Slalom racers *must* wear one now?

Yep, the regulations have just changed so that hemets must be worn for all
disciplines

I wear mine for racing/training and when it's cold, it's far better than a
hat.

--
Chris *:-)



  #13  
Old January 17th 07, 04:38 PM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
Matt T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 158
Default Stupid helmet question ...


Alun Evans wrote:

On Wed 17 Jan '07 at 14:25 Ace wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:12:06 +0000, Alun Evans
wrote:

On Wed 17 Jan '07 at 12:38 Mike Clark wrote:


Have any resorts collected data on proportions of skiers using helmets
and also the proportions of skiers injured in accidents and whether or
not they were wearing a helmet?

I personally know two head trauma incidents (one with helmet, fine; other,
unconscious), though they were both snow-boarders, which does seem to lend
itself to head-plants.


I've never worn a helmet for skiing or cycling, and am sceptical about
their efficacy. I work on the basis that I've fallen loads of time,
including head plants, and never damaged my head, so the sort of
impact I'd like to protect against is much greater than those I've
experienced.


Indeed. I had the same thoughts, though after a couple of close scrapes with
branches, I decided to give it a try, and it's not too bad. Nice and toasty
when it's cold too.

snip

Anyhoo, your sample size is clearly too small to draw conclusions from


Indeed, which is why I didn't...

- I've personally witnessed dozens of ski and board accidents wear the
head has made contact with sme other surface or object and never seen
any major trauma - doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that in all of
the cases I've witnessed the wearing of a helmet would have provided
no benefit.

I don't want to turn this into a helmet-wars argument, such as used to
come around periodically on the cycling newsgroups (probably still do,
but I've not been active there for years). I would certainly never try
to persuade anyone that they're not a good idea, as long as no-one
tells me that I should wear one;-)


Well, it's more the legal aspects that should worry you, i.e. when a resort
tells you to wear one, or your insurers do. (Particularly in the US).

I think it's also the case that FIS Slalom racers *must* wear one now?


Personally, when it's sunny and not too cold, it is nicer with just a pair of
sunglasses.


A.


Interesting discussion - I keep telling myself I'm going to go and buy
a helmet, but I too prefer hat and sunglasses so keep putting it off.

Skiers and boarders I know all seem to have gone and bought one when
they've either had a close call themselves or seen someone else come a
cropper. Anecdotally, boarders do seem to land on their head more since
if you catch an edge at speed you'll probably ragdoll down the hill
hitting your head as you go, and too fast to do anything to stop it.
Skiers on the other hand seem to have the rest of their body as a
crumple zone so it's more likely to be unlucky colisions with rocks and
other slope users that do the damage.

It's the decreased hearing and peripheral vision I'm not keen on.
Advice from the manager of a ski shop here? Make sure you go faster
than everyone else on the hill....

Matt

  #14  
Old January 17th 07, 05:07 PM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
Le Dieu
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 28
Default Stupid helmet question ...


"Alun Evans" wrote in message
...


On Sun 14 Jan '07 at 20:46 "Le Dieu" wrote:

... Just bought one and I'm heading out for four days next week. Just
wondering if anyone's got any packing tips. I'm only taking an overnight
bag
which won't offer it much in the way of protection.


I've seen a lot of helmets carried as hand luggage, clipped onto a bag.


Though I've packed mine stuffed with clothing in the middle of my checked
bag.


A.


Thanks for the tip.

As for the politics, I was hoping not to start that debate as I'm wearing
mine purely as a fashion accessory and to make me look a better skiier than
I am.

Must go and pack now. Where did I leave my pink one-piece?

A. D.


  #15  
Old January 17th 07, 05:07 PM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
pg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 95
Default Stupid helmet question ...


"Mike Clark" wrote in message
.uk...
| In message
| Ace wrote:
|
| On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:12:06 +0000, Alun Evans
| wrote:
|
| On Wed 17 Jan '07 at 12:38 Mike Clark
wrote:
|
| Have any resorts collected data on proportions of skiers using
helmets
| and also the proportions of skiers injured in accidents and
whether or
| not they were wearing a helmet?
|
| I personally know two head trauma incidents (one with helmet, fine;
other,
| unconscious), though they were both snow-boarders, which does seem
to lend
| itself to head-plants.
|
| I've never worn a helmet for skiing or cycling, and am sceptical
about
| their efficacy. I work on the basis that I've fallen loads of time,
| including head plants, and never damaged my head, so the sort of
| impact I'd like to protect against is much greater than those I've
| experienced. Unfortunately, in the case of massive impact, the level
| of protection provided by cycle and ski helmets is woefully
| inadequate, as far as I can tell, so I'll either wear a proper
helmet,
| such as I use(d) for motorcycling, or not bother.
|
| Anyhoo, your sample size is clearly too small to draw conclusions
from
| - I've personally witnessed dozens of ski and board accidents wear
the
| head has made contact with sme other surface or object and never
seen
| any major trauma - doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that in all
of
| the cases I've witnessed the wearing of a helmet would have provided
| no benefit.
|
| I don't want to turn this into a helmet-wars argument, such as used
to
| come around periodically on the cycling newsgroups (probably still
do,
| but I've not been active there for years). I would certainly never
try
| to persuade anyone that they're not a good idea, as long as no-one
| tells me that I should wear one;-)
|
|
| I've now found a study published in JAMA (requires registration)

You can see the full study on MySnowSports, no registration neeeded...

http://mysnowsports.com/News/article/sid=591.html

Pete


  #16  
Old January 17th 07, 05:35 PM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
Mike Clark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 58
Default Stupid helmet question ...

In message
"pg" wrote:


"Mike Clark" wrote in message
.uk...

[snip]
|
| I've now found a study published in JAMA (requires registration)

You can see the full study on MySnowSports, no registration neeeded...

http://mysnowsports.com/News/article/sid=591.html

Pete


Thanks for pointing that out. One aspect that I'd like to try and get an
estimate for is the likeliehood of a reported accident per
skier/snowboarder on the slopes. The Norwegian study says that they
interviewed every 10th person in a queue sampled twice a day, and twice
a week, throughout the study period, in order to get enough controls to
match the expected number of injuries. However it doesn't give a total
for the estimated number of skiers passing through the resorts during
the study period.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
" || _`\,_ |__\ \ | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"
  #17  
Old January 17th 07, 05:42 PM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
Adrian D. Shaw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 32
Default Stupid helmet question ...

Felly sgrifennodd Mike Clark :
The other thing that the study threw up was that those who regarded
themselves as risk takers were more likely to wear a helmet than those
who regarded themselves as cautious skiers.


The seat-belt effect? When seat belts were made compulsory in the UK,
injuries increased (people felt safer so took more risks), though
serious injuries decreased.

I am sure a similar effect can apply to helmets. However, I wonder if
the greater tendency to take risks among helmet wearers may increase the
overall serious injury rate in skiing. Yes, head injuries are serious,
but so are back injuries, neck injuries and others, which a helmet
cannot protect against.

If I were the type of skier who slalom-raced off piste through the
forests of the lower slopes, I guess I would wear a helmet. But anything
which makes me feel safer is likely to make me more reckless, and I'd
rather feel my true vulnerability.

Adrian
--
Adrian Shaw [email protected]
Adran Cyfrifiadureg, Prifysgol Cymru, aber.
Aberystwyth, Ceredigion, Cymru ac.
http://users.aber.ac.uk/ais/weather/ uk
  #18  
Old January 17th 07, 06:06 PM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
MoonMan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 236
Default Stupid helmet question ...

Adrian D. Shaw wrote:
Felly sgrifennodd Mike Clark :
The other thing that the study threw up was that those who regarded
themselves as risk takers were more likely to wear a helmet than
those who regarded themselves as cautious skiers.


The seat-belt effect? When seat belts were made compulsory in the UK,
injuries increased (people felt safer so took more risks), though
serious injuries decreased.

I am sure a similar effect can apply to helmets. However, I wonder if
the greater tendency to take risks among helmet wearers may increase
the overall serious injury rate in skiing. Yes, head injuries are
serious, but so are back injuries, neck injuries and others, which a
helmet cannot protect against.

If I were the type of skier who slalom-raced off piste through the
forests of the lower slopes, I guess I would wear a helmet. But
anything which makes me feel safer is likely to make me more
reckless, and I'd rather feel my true vulnerability.

I don't understand this "reckless behavior to compensate for feeling safer"
idea, why should a helmet make you feel safer? I am just as loath to hit the
ground wether I have my helmet (or other padding/protection for that matter)
on or not. I don't know about anyone else, but when I'm about to hit the
ground I don't have time to think about what I'm wearing.

The only time I can think off when I behave differently when wearing a
helmet is in a Slalom course, When I am quite happy to headbutt a pole when
wearring a helmet but endeavour to keep my head away from the pole if I'm
not. but a face guard would be equally effective in this case.

--
Chris *:-)


  #19  
Old January 17th 07, 06:46 PM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
pg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 95
Default Stupid helmet question ...


"Ace" wrote in message
...
| On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:12:06 +0000, Alun Evans
| wrote:
|
| On Wed 17 Jan '07 at 12:38 Mike Clark wrote:
|
| I've never worn a helmet for skiing or cycling, and am sceptical about
| their efficacy. I work on the basis that I've fallen loads of time,
| including head plants, and never damaged my head, so the sort of
| impact I'd like to protect against is much greater than those I've
| experienced. Unfortunately, in the case of massive impact, the level
| of protection provided by cycle and ski helmets is woefully
| inadequate, as far as I can tell, so I'll either wear a proper helmet,
| such as I use(d) for motorcycling, or not bother.
|
| Anyhoo, your sample size is clearly too small to draw conclusions from
| - I've personally witnessed dozens of ski and board accidents wear the
| head has made contact with sme other surface or object and never seen
| any major trauma - doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that in all of
| the cases I've witnessed the wearing of a helmet would have provided
| no benefit.
|
| I don't want to turn this into a helmet-wars argument, such as used to
| come around periodically on the cycling newsgroups (probably still do,
| but I've not been active there for years). I would certainly never try
| to persuade anyone that they're not a good idea, as long as no-one
| tells me that I should wear one;-)

It's a tough question, and clearly - given this incident on Monday ...

http://mysnowsports.com/News/article/sid=683.html

.... there are instances when a helmet would provide no protection
whatsoever. Still, there are multiple minor incidents when a helmet
could lessen the impact sufficiently to make it worthwhile - not least
when some out-of-control skier/boarder takes you out from behind. It's
not all down you taking a fall through your own foolishness/bad
luck/lack of technique/lack of awareness of the conditions...

Given the state of the snow around the Alps at the moment, I reckon at
least all youngsters should be strongly advised to wear one. As for
adults... I reckon it should remain their choice.

Still, hopefully there'll be some snow at last, next week! Some
promising forecasts, but don't get too excited ;-)

Pete


  #20  
Old January 17th 07, 08:40 PM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
Ace
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 275
Default Stupid helmet question ...

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 15:16:32 +0000, Alun Evans
wrote:

On Wed 17 Jan '07 at 14:25 Ace wrote:


I don't want to turn this into a helmet-wars argument, such as used to
come around periodically on the cycling newsgroups (probably still do,
but I've not been active there for years). I would certainly never try
to persuade anyone that they're not a good idea, as long as no-one
tells me that I should wear one;-)


Well, it's more the legal aspects that should worry you, i.e. when a resort
tells you to wear one, or your insurers do. (Particularly in the US).


The Ski Club has made it a rule that all children on Ski Freshtracks
holidays should wear them, which seems to be in keeping with the trend
in various resorts around the world. There's some info on current
rules im various resorts on the Ski Club site at
http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/gui...?intGuideID=24

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.
 




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