Korte start moved and other topics.

Marsh Jones wrote



"In terms of major structural changes, how about starting all classic
skiers 30 or 60min ahead of wave one?"



Very good idea, but surely you don't mean a mass start of 1000+ kickers?
Now that would be congestion. Maybe in several waves with more sets of
tracks to the power lines. Of course, then you have reduced groomed trail
width for the skaters. And so it goes.one solution begets another problem.



I unfortunately lined up at the back of the pack of wave 5 and was the last
kicker across the start line. I did not clear the trains of slower kickers
until after the 9K mark and lost probably 12 minutes or so just from a poor
choice of start location. Very rested I was at that point, though. Don't
get me wrong, I'm not complaining about other skiers at all because it was
my fault where I lined up. The Traverse City Vasa went to a "Classic only"
start 30 minutes before the skaters' start a couple years ago. Very
successful, but they have less than 1/10 the number of kickers as the
Birkie+Korto.



For years The Birkie organizers treated the kickers as second class skiers.
But, I am seeing positive trends, albeit slowly, year by year. This year
they actually recognized the top kickers at the awards ceremony. (Note:
this is my first year back at Birkie since 1999, so I can't say if awards to
kickers is new this year, or actually occurred in some intervening year.)
In my first few years of Birkie I was disillusioned by how we kickers were
treated, this was the main reason I haven't skied it in four years. We were
not even recognized as a separate class in the first couple years I did it.
Maybe my letters to the Foundation did some good after all. Looks like I'll
be back.



merging the Korto into the Birkie at OO. This could be fraught with
problems as has been discussed; I can't see how it can be done. It could
prove very difficult for kickers who must pass slower merged kickers (either
fast Kortos passing slow Birkies or vice versa.) IMHO, it is much more
energy exhaustive for a kicker to pass a kicker than it is for a skater to
pass a skater.



BTW, it was nice to actually have tracks down Main Street this year. (Yet
one more improvement Birkie has made for the kickers.) Usually, the mush is
so bad, I flail wildly, arms and legs, and make a total fool of myself. And
just when you're the most tired! Funny how that works out.



Finally, one rant: for those kickers who decided to skate without
registering the change with the Birkie organizers: a "Classical"
designation on both sides of the bib would be nice so they can be hooted off
the course as they pass you skating. After all, who looks back at a bib?
But a bib in front of you with(out) a classic sticker/stamp would be like a
neon sign. Also, the peel off stickers they used this year were nice I
suppose, but ineffective in the end. If I were so inclined, I would just
put it under the bib at the start and put it back on the front as I came off
Lake Hayward and kicked down Main Street.

FWIW

This year at the Birkie
617 Classic, 3436 Skate

Korteloppet
537 Classic, 1185 Skate

These are close. There were actually another 300 skiers in all races total
after these stats came out.

Greg Fangel


"John Galt" wrote in message
...
Marsh Jones wrote



"In terms of major structural changes, how about starting all classic
skiers 30 or 60min ahead of wave one?"



Very good idea, but surely you don't mean a mass start of 1000+ kickers?
Now that would be congestion. Maybe in several waves with more sets of
tracks to the power lines. Of course, then you have reduced groomed trail
width for the skaters. And so it goes.one solution begets another
problem.



I unfortunately lined up at the back of the pack of wave 5 and was the
last
kicker across the start line. I did not clear the trains of slower
kickers
until after the 9K mark and lost probably 12 minutes or so just from a
poor
choice of start location. Very rested I was at that point, though. Don't
get me wrong, I'm not complaining about other skiers at all because it was
my fault where I lined up. The Traverse City Vasa went to a "Classic
only"
start 30 minutes before the skaters' start a couple years ago. Very
successful, but they have less than 1/10 the number of kickers as the
Birkie+Korto.



For years The Birkie organizers treated the kickers as second class
skiers.
But, I am seeing positive trends, albeit slowly, year by year. This year
they actually recognized the top kickers at the awards ceremony. (Note:
this is my first year back at Birkie since 1999, so I can't say if awards
to
kickers is new this year, or actually occurred in some intervening year.)
In my first few years of Birkie I was disillusioned by how we kickers were
treated, this was the main reason I haven't skied it in four years. We
were
not even recognized as a separate class in the first couple years I did
it.
Maybe my letters to the Foundation did some good after all. Looks like
I'll
be back.



merging the Korto into the Birkie at OO. This could be fraught with
problems as has been discussed; I can't see how it can be done. It could
prove very difficult for kickers who must pass slower merged kickers
(either
fast Kortos passing slow Birkies or vice versa.) IMHO, it is much more
energy exhaustive for a kicker to pass a kicker than it is for a skater to
pass a skater.



BTW, it was nice to actually have tracks down Main Street this year. (Yet
one more improvement Birkie has made for the kickers.) Usually, the mush
is
so bad, I flail wildly, arms and legs, and make a total fool of myself.
And
just when you're the most tired! Funny how that works out.



Finally, one rant: for those kickers who decided to skate without
registering the change with the Birkie organizers: a "Classical"
designation on both sides of the bib would be nice so they can be hooted
off
the course as they pass you skating. After all, who looks back at a bib?
But a bib in front of you with(out) a classic sticker/stamp would be like
a
neon sign. Also, the peel off stickers they used this year were nice I
suppose, but ineffective in the end. If I were so inclined, I would just
put it under the bib at the start and put it back on the front as I came
off
Lake Hayward and kicked down Main Street.

"Greg Fangel" wrote in message news:xXd%b.397313$I06.4330520@attbi_s01...
FWIW

This year at the Birkie
617 Classic, 3436 Skate

Korteloppet
537 Classic, 1185 Skate

These are close. There were actually another 300 skiers in all races total
after these stats came out.

Greg Fangel



question.
if the birkie alternated every year classic and freestyle would you do
it?

i've mentioned it in the past to some higher-ups and they think that
skaters wouldn't want to get into the hassle of classic skiing and
entries would decline. i don't quite buy that. if the birkie were
classic, i think birkie entrants would spend just as much time classic
skiing in training as they do skating now. shops would sell a lot
more no-wax skis, that's for sure.

would love to put a yes/no check box on the birkie entry asking if
people would classic.

on the topic of this thread, i never liked having racers from
different races finishing together at the same time. i bet there are
spectators at mora that never knew that the 58k winner just crossed
the line mixed in with all the 35k'ers. i like that the birkie has
all these expectant spectators watching this empty snowy main street
waiting for the first skiers to arrive, and when they do show, it's
the fastest of the fast and the cow bells start going crazy.

ok.
-phil

I've done 16 Birkies and skated each one. I would never classic the Birkie.
If they changed to every other year being skate/classic I would only go the
years that it was a skate race.
"p.bowen" wrote in message
om...
"Greg Fangel" wrote in message
news:xXd%b.397313$I06.4330520@attbi_s01...
FWIW

This year at the Birkie
617 Classic, 3436 Skate

Korteloppet
537 Classic, 1185 Skate

These are close. There were actually another 300 skiers in all races
total
after these stats came out.

Greg Fangel



question.
if the birkie alternated every year classic and freestyle would you do
it?

i've mentioned it in the past to some higher-ups and they think that
skaters wouldn't want to get into the hassle of classic skiing and
entries would decline. i don't quite buy that. if the birkie were
classic, i think birkie entrants would spend just as much time classic
skiing in training as they do skating now. shops would sell a lot
more no-wax skis, that's for sure.

would love to put a yes/no check box on the birkie entry asking if
people would classic.

on the topic of this thread, i never liked having racers from
different races finishing together at the same time. i bet there are
spectators at mora that never knew that the 58k winner just crossed
the line mixed in with all the 35k'ers. i like that the birkie has
all these expectant spectators watching this empty snowy main street
waiting for the first skiers to arrive, and when they do show, it's
the fastest of the fast and the cow bells start going crazy.

ok.
-phil

On 26 Feb 2004 13:26:06 -0800, (p.bowen) wrote:

"Greg Fangel" wrote in message news:xXd%b.397313$I06.4330520@attbi_s01...
FWIW

This year at the Birkie
617 Classic, 3436 Skate

Korteloppet
537 Classic, 1185 Skate

These are close. There were actually another 300 skiers in all races total
after these stats came out.

Greg Fangel



question.
if the birkie alternated every year classic and freestyle would you do
it?

i've mentioned it in the past to some higher-ups and they think that
skaters wouldn't want to get into the hassle of classic skiing and
entries would decline. i don't quite buy that. if the birkie were
classic, i think birkie entrants would spend just as much time classic
skiing in training as they do skating now. shops would sell a lot
more no-wax skis, that's for sure.

would love to put a yes/no check box on the birkie entry asking if
people would classic.

on the topic of this thread, i never liked having racers from
different races finishing together at the same time. i bet there are
spectators at mora that never knew that the 58k winner just crossed
the line mixed in with all the 35k'ers. i like that the birkie has
all these expectant spectators watching this empty snowy main street
waiting for the first skiers to arrive, and when they do show, it's
the fastest of the fast and the cow bells start going crazy.

ok.
-phil


I have to say that I'm not too enthused about them starting the Korte
at OO, if that is even in the works. I've only positive things about
the Korte's experiment with starting and finishing at Telemark.

g.c.

(p.bowen) wrote in message . com...

question.
if the birkie alternated every year classic and freestyle would you do
it?

I'd love to do a classic Birkie....until the weather is 35 F at the
start and 45 at the finish. Historically, my classic skiing has
certainly been weaker than my skating, but I had some encouraging
results at the Seeley Hills Classic this year. So a classic race would
purely be for my enjoyment but I wouldn't be as competitive that way.

I've wondering if the Birkie could pull off a Saturday classic and
Sunday skate combo. Maybe they could end the classic by the
headquarters (so they wouldn't shut down the highway for two days).
Then we could see who would compete with Ransom in the "best of both,
I have no fatique limit" award.

Jay Wenner

"Sly D. Skeez" wrote in message
om...
............ I've wondering if the Birkie could pull off a Saturday classic
and
Sunday skate combo. Maybe they could end the classic by the
headquarters (so they wouldn't shut down the highway for two days).
Then we could see who would compete with Ransom in the "best of both,
I have no fatique limit" award.

Jay Wenner

I suspect that the Birkie Office wouldn't think about two days of
activities. It takes a huge exertion of energy from the community and
volunteers to pull off the race on Saturday. There are 2000 volunteers for
the Birkie. I expect that most of them wouldn't want to work two days in a
row.

Bruce Adelsman asked the same question about having a classic Birkie on his
website, www.skinnyski.com.

Here are the results
http://www.votations.com/asp/results...d=117886&lang=

Most people that voted, chose to keep the Birkie like it is.

Greg Fangel