Toko Helx - Question for Rob B.

All -

I posted a response to Doug Diehl's question about Waxing for warm
temps. I used Toko Helx Warm over Toko HF wax. My limited anecdotal
evidence suggests that when using Helx, it doesn't much matter what
the base wax layers are - Helx has such a broad range that it performs
in that it almost seems to extend the temperature range of the wax
under it.

So... if this is true, what is the benefit to the layer of LF, HF, or
Jetstream that Toko suggests as the base layers to Helx? Would a
properly structured ski w/ Helx alone perform just as well? Or does
the Helx need a wax layer to "anchor" it and provide durability?

I'm beginning to think that given the leaps in polymer (and packaging)
technology, the paste /liquid waxes now on the market (providing the
"nano" layer) are the future of ski waxing - wipe on, buff off and GO!
Helx, Toko Nanotec and X-Press, the new Swix liquid; this seems to be
where we are headed.

- Bob

--- Bob Maswick wrote:
All -

So... if this is true, what is the benefit to the layer of LF, HF, or
Jetstream that Toko suggests as the base layers to Helx? Would a
properly structured ski w/ Helx alone perform just as well? Or does
the Helx need a wax layer to "anchor" it and provide durability?

I've never experimented with just using Helx. But I have tried that
trick with Jetstream, and from that I'd say that you do need the
underlayers. I like to demo the power of fluoro at my clinics by
waxing half the ski and dropping water on it to show how much faster it
slides off the fluoro. Doesn't work too well if you skip the
underlayers of HF wax (much to my embarrasment). I can't tell you why,
but from experience, I know that it really makes a difference to put on
multiple layers of wax. The Moly + HF + Helx combo is wonderfully fast
and durable. Some people report that Helx wears off after 5K. I think
what actually happens is that it is unbelievably fast for 5K, and then
calms down to normal fast fluoro levels. I used my Lake Placid skis
(50K) at our weekly race a few days later and they were still rockets -
faster than my freshly waxed skis. I raced on Helx at Hanover NH for
the 10K skate on Saturday. Skis were total rockets - only problem is
that they get me so excited that I ski too hard and die in the second
half of the race. When a skier slows down it must be the wax, right?
:

If anyone wants to experiment with just Helx vs a fully waxed ski with
Helx I'd love to hear about it.

Rob Bradlee
Toko Tech Team

Thought I'd piggy back and throw in another Helx question on this
thread for Rob...

Instructions are to spray a "consistent layer." Given that most of us
will want to be using as little Helx as possible for each
application--how much is enough? (So far, I can spray an amount
varying from something that looks like a light mist on the ski to
something that looks like a puddle.)

thanks in advance...Jon

Talked to several people today, all of whom were quite disappointed
with the Toko wax recommendation. Anyone use the Toko Helx with good
results, or was just a miss on the recommendation?

Ron Bott

I like to get a decent layer of the stuff onto the ski. It should have
a smooth surface - no visible separate drops. I find I get this by
moving steadily down the ski with the sprayer about 6 to 8 inches away
from the ski. Then I look for missed spots and add a spritz here and
there. Let it dry to a white powder. Buff and fly!

--- Jon wrote:
Thought I'd piggy back and throw in another Helx question on this
thread for Rob...

Instructions are to spray a "consistent layer." Given that most of
us
will want to be using as little Helx as possible for each
application--how much is enough? (So far, I can spray an amount
varying from something that looks like a light mist on the ski to
something that looks like a puddle.)

thanks in advance...Jon






=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training

I used Helx Cold and had good skis but there were faster skis out there. My
skis were at least as fast as most of the people I was skiing with though.
As an underlayer I had Fast Wax Salmon. I do think that a normal flour
would have been the way to go or maybe Helx Warm. I think most people were
caught off guard by the warmer than expected temps on Sat morning. I do
think Helx is a great wax if for no other reason than its simplicity in
application. So nice to not have to worry about putting a hot iron on your
skis. I do hope that all wax moves in this direction in the future, but
that prices don't sky rocket.

Subaru team seemed to have great skis. A few of their women flew by me on
some downhills and that's with giving up several pounds. Might be the work
of Zach as I saw a Subaru Factory vehicle parked at Zach's truck in Seeley
on Friday night.

Dave

"Ron Bott" wrote in message
om...
Talked to several people today, all of whom were quite disappointed
with the Toko wax recommendation. Anyone use the Toko Helx with good
results, or was just a miss on the recommendation?

Ron Bott

--- Bob Maswick wrote:
So... if this is true, what is the benefit to the layer of LF, HF, or
Jetstream that Toko suggests as the base layers to Helx? Would a
properly structured ski w/ Helx alone perform just as well? Or does
the Helx need a wax layer to "anchor" it and provide durability?

(Rob Bradlee) wrote in message
I've never experimented with just using Helx.
If anyone wants to experiment with just Helx vs a fully waxed ski with
Helx I'd love to hear about it.

All -

We all know that fluoro's are tough, reject dirt better than paraffin,
are highly "slippery", and are hydrophobic.
The following snip, from Nat Brown's newsletter, may be the answer to
the question I posed a few weeks ago:

"Fluoros will only adhere to fluoros. They don't really penetrate the
base - in fact, bases repel fluoros! This is why we use
fluoroparaffins, which are a double-ended molecule, as a sub-layer
under pure fluoros: the paraffin end of the molecule, being very
similar to polyethylene, go into the base, leaving the fluoro end
outside (think ostrich). To achieve good adhesion of pure fluoros,
therefore, we put down a fluoroparaffin as a base, or anchor, then a
pure fluoro."

So, I guess I'm clear about the need for (and value of) the LF/HF
underlayers when using a pure fluoro like Helx.

- Bob

On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Bob Maswick wrote:

The following snip, from Nat Brown's newsletter, may be the answer to
the question I posed a few weeks ago:

Nat Brown's newsletter is back in business??? This is great news! How
long has this been going on? Where do I sign up? I wonder why, as a
subscriber to the his previous newsletter, I was never solicited to
subscribe to the new newsletter. :-(

It was an excellent journal, full of useful information that was hard
to come by anywhere else. Then out of the blue he suddenly shut it down
with a rather bizarre explanation. Don't recall exactly when this was,
probably early 90s.


"Fluoros will only adhere to fluoros. They don't really penetrate the
base - in fact, bases repel fluoros! This is why we use

Now I'm wondering if this might have anything to do with why Madshus
adds fluoros to their ski bases. Have any other manufacturers picked
up on this idea or is Madshus still the only one?

-Mitch

From: "Mitch Collinsworth"
Nat Brown's newsletter is back in business??? This is great news!
How
long has this been going on? Where do I sign up? I wonder why, as
a
subscriber to the his previous newsletter, I was never solicited to
subscribe to the new newsletter. :-(

It was an excellent journal, full of useful information that was
hard
to come by anywhere else. Then out of the blue he suddenly shut it
down
with a rather bizarre explanation. Don't recall exactly when this
was,
probably early 90s.

Nat's business is Nordic Ultra Tune, at
http://www.ultratune.net/cgi-bin/ut.cgi

near the end of the home page, it states:
"Newsletter:
For a free subscription to the Nordic UltraTune newsletter, please
send an e-mail to "