New gear ==> unhappy skier

For background, I'm a 7th-decade, 220 lb, marginally fit skier whose
excursions usually involve shuffling up some unplowed forest road or
some snowmobile or snowshoe track through the woods on waxless
metal-edge skis for maybe 800 to 1000 feet elevation gain, then *very*
carefully skiing or snowplowing back down. I do very little "kick and
glide", even on groomed areas, and no skating.

Been doing this for the past 5 years all around Lake Tahoe using Karhu
Lookouts (190 cm, 73-60-67 cm, NNN-BC bindings) with Alpina 2500 boots
(sturdy leather lower boot, heavy sole, heavy plastic heel and ankle
cuff with two strong adjustable ankle clamps), and have been pretty
happy with this setup.

This year, looking mostly for lighter weight on the foot, I purchased a
pair of Rossignol BC 61s (200 cm, 60-50-55 cm, also NNN-BC bindings)
coupled with Rossignol BC All Terrain boots (lower-cut synthetic fabric
boot, lighter sole, considerably lighter plastic heel and ankle cuff
with velcro type ankle strap).

After trying these for 4 or 5 days under varied conditions, I'm really
unhappy with the skis: they seem to have essentially _zero_ grip or
"stick" for climbing, compared to the Karhu Lookouts.

Climbing performance seems to be lousy under any conditions ranging from
groomed but still rough-surfaced trails in above-freezing conditions on
the Spooner Lake North Canyon Trail, to 4" of new powder partially
filling previously broken tracks in Tahoe Mdws at 20 degree
temperatures. Forget about ascending anything but the gentlest of
grades; these things barely grip even when you stamp 'em in on the flat!

Anyone have any suggestions for an intermediate waxless metal-edge ski
that might be somewhat lighter than the Lookouts, but have a lot more
grip than these Rossignols going up gentle to moderate grades under a
wide variety of conditions -- maybe one of the Fischer models?

[I do own skins and have used them from time to time, but would prefer
not to have to mess with them.]

As for the boots, though I miss the feeling of ankle support from the
heavier and higher boots I guess I can live with this; but does anyone
have any suggestions on an NNN-BC boot that would be intermediate in
weight between the old Alpina 2500s and the new Rossignol All Terrains?

Boots: I think Karhu has a version (model Sirius I think) of their poly
coated leather that might do you good
re; grip; In Fischer skis all the metal edge skis have negative scales for
grip (I think this is the same for other mfg also). This gives much less
grip than the regular fishscale (positive mostly). Maybe you can change to
non-metal edge skis?
gr
"AES/newspost" wrote in message
...
For background, I'm a 7th-decade, 220 lb, marginally fit skier whose
excursions usually involve shuffling up some unplowed forest road or
some snowmobile or snowshoe track through the woods on waxless
metal-edge skis for maybe 800 to 1000 feet elevation gain, then *very*
carefully skiing or snowplowing back down. I do very little "kick and
glide", even on groomed areas, and no skating.

Been doing this for the past 5 years all around Lake Tahoe using Karhu
Lookouts (190 cm, 73-60-67 cm, NNN-BC bindings) with Alpina 2500 boots
(sturdy leather lower boot, heavy sole, heavy plastic heel and ankle
cuff with two strong adjustable ankle clamps), and have been pretty
happy with this setup.

This year, looking mostly for lighter weight on the foot, I purchased a
pair of Rossignol BC 61s (200 cm, 60-50-55 cm, also NNN-BC bindings)
coupled with Rossignol BC All Terrain boots (lower-cut synthetic fabric
boot, lighter sole, considerably lighter plastic heel and ankle cuff
with velcro type ankle strap).

After trying these for 4 or 5 days under varied conditions, I'm really
unhappy with the skis: they seem to have essentially _zero_ grip or
"stick" for climbing, compared to the Karhu Lookouts.

Climbing performance seems to be lousy under any conditions ranging from
groomed but still rough-surfaced trails in above-freezing conditions on
the Spooner Lake North Canyon Trail, to 4" of new powder partially
filling previously broken tracks in Tahoe Mdws at 20 degree
temperatures. Forget about ascending anything but the gentlest of
grades; these things barely grip even when you stamp 'em in on the flat!

Anyone have any suggestions for an intermediate waxless metal-edge ski
that might be somewhat lighter than the Lookouts, but have a lot more
grip than these Rossignols going up gentle to moderate grades under a
wide variety of conditions -- maybe one of the Fischer models?

[I do own skins and have used them from time to time, but would prefer
not to have to mess with them.]

As for the boots, though I miss the feeling of ankle support from the
heavier and higher boots I guess I can live with this; but does anyone
have any suggestions on an NNN-BC boot that would be intermediate in
weight between the old Alpina 2500s and the new Rossignol All Terrains?

"GR" wrote re; grip; In Fischer skis all
the metal edge skis have negative scales for
grip (I think this is the same for other mfg also). This gives much less
grip than the regular fishscale (positive mostly). Maybe you can change to
non-metal edge skis?

You may also wax the fishscale skis to improve grip. For climbing, wax well
beyond what would be the wax pocket on skis designed for the track. There
are some waxes that give good climbing grip without much danger of icing up.
Special Red is an example of one that works well for such a purpose in the
East. Talk to a local cross country center about the best choice for a
"climbing wax" in your area. With a little experience you'll can learn the
thickness and length that will allow the wax to stick when weighted with
full body weight and to slide when weighted with half body weight. This
technique even works on telemark skis as an alternative to skins when there
is a lot of up and down.

Tommy T.

AES/newspost wrote:
For background, I'm a 7th-decade, 220 lb, marginally fit skier whose
excursions usually involve shuffling up some unplowed forest road or
some snowmobile or snowshoe track through the woods on waxless
metal-edge skis for maybe 800 to 1000 feet elevation gain, then *very*
carefully skiing or snowplowing back down. I do very little "kick and
glide", even on groomed areas, and no skating.

Been doing this for the past 5 years all around Lake Tahoe using Karhu
Lookouts (190 cm, 73-60-67 cm, NNN-BC bindings) with Alpina 2500 boots
(sturdy leather lower boot, heavy sole, heavy plastic heel and ankle
cuff with two strong adjustable ankle clamps), and have been pretty
happy with this setup.

This year, looking mostly for lighter weight on the foot, I purchased
a pair of Rossignol BC 61s (200 cm, 60-50-55 cm, also NNN-BC bindings)
coupled with Rossignol BC All Terrain boots (lower-cut synthetic
fabric boot, lighter sole, considerably lighter plastic heel and
ankle cuff with velcro type ankle strap).

After trying these for 4 or 5 days under varied conditions, I'm really
unhappy with the skis: they seem to have essentially _zero_ grip or
"stick" for climbing, compared to the Karhu Lookouts.

Climbing performance seems to be lousy under any conditions ranging
from groomed but still rough-surfaced trails in above-freezing
conditions on the Spooner Lake North Canyon Trail, to 4" of new
powder partially filling previously broken tracks in Tahoe Mdws at 20
degree temperatures. Forget about ascending anything but the
gentlest of grades; these things barely grip even when you stamp 'em
in on the flat!

Anyone have any suggestions for an intermediate waxless metal-edge ski
that might be somewhat lighter than the Lookouts, but have a lot more
grip than these Rossignols going up gentle to moderate grades under a
wide variety of conditions -- maybe one of the Fischer models?

[I do own skins and have used them from time to time, but would prefer
not to have to mess with them.]

As for the boots, though I miss the feeling of ankle support from the
heavier and higher boots I guess I can live with this; but does anyone
have any suggestions on an NNN-BC boot that would be intermediate in
weight between the old Alpina 2500s and the new Rossignol All
Terrains?

I'm also 220 lbs 7th decade. I use mostly waxable, but I do have a pair of
Fisher waxless Wayback 187 cm with metal edges which climb pretty well. I
mostly use them when it's warm. Maybe the 200 cm is a little long for you.
I find the waxables are better climbing and gliding at enything less than 30
degrees. Of course, you do need to learn to wax!

--
Bob Burns
Mill Hall PA

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In article ,
Tommy T. wrote:

"GR" wrote re; grip; In Fischer skis all
the metal edge skis have negative scales for
grip (I think this is the same for other mfg also). This gives much less
grip than the regular fishscale (positive mostly). Maybe you can change to
non-metal edge skis?

You may also wax the fishscale skis to improve grip. For climbing, wax well
beyond what would be the wax pocket on skis designed for the track. There
are some waxes that give good climbing grip without much danger of icing up.
Special Red is an example of one that works well for such a purpose in the
East. Talk to a local cross country center about the best choice for a
"climbing wax" in your area. With a little experience you'll can learn the
thickness and length that will allow the wax to stick when weighted with
full body weight and to slide when weighted with half body weight. This
technique even works on telemark skis as an alternative to skins when there
is a lot of up and down.

_ There is no wax that works well in the Sierra for a day long
outing if the sun is out. You can go from powder to ice to
wet mush in a quarter of a mile. Waxing nowax skis is a handy
trick especially with negative bases like the Fischers, just
not very useful around here.

_ Booker C. Bense



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In article ,
AES/newspost wrote:
For background, I'm a 7th-decade, 220 lb, marginally fit skier whose
excursions usually involve shuffling up some unplowed forest road or
some snowmobile or snowshoe track through the woods on waxless
metal-edge skis for maybe 800 to 1000 feet elevation gain, then *very*
carefully skiing or snowplowing back down. I do very little "kick and
glide", even on groomed areas, and no skating.

Been doing this for the past 5 years all around Lake Tahoe using Karhu
Lookouts (190 cm, 73-60-67 cm, NNN-BC bindings) with Alpina 2500 boots
(sturdy leather lower boot, heavy sole, heavy plastic heel and ankle
cuff with two strong adjustable ankle clamps), and have been pretty
happy with this setup.

This year, looking mostly for lighter weight on the foot, I purchased a
pair of Rossignol BC 61s (200 cm, 60-50-55 cm, also NNN-BC bindings)
coupled with Rossignol BC All Terrain boots (lower-cut synthetic fabric
boot, lighter sole, considerably lighter plastic heel and ankle cuff
with velcro type ankle strap).

_ For what you're doing I think you'd be alot happier with either
the Fischer S-Bounds or the Atomic Mt. Rainer. They will probably
go on sale at REI shortly. I think the Rainer has a more positive
pattern than the Fischer, but I'd need to check to be sure. They
are also way more fun on the way back down. The fischers are
pricey, but for their width very light and IMHO the best
BC ski out there.


After trying these for 4 or 5 days under varied conditions, I'm really
unhappy with the skis: they seem to have essentially _zero_ grip or
"stick" for climbing, compared to the Karhu Lookouts.


_ All the Rossi BC skis I've looked at are not very good, they
just seem not very well thought out. Karhu has probably the best
all around nowax base out there.

Climbing performance seems to be lousy under any conditions ranging from
groomed but still rough-surfaced trails in above-freezing conditions on
the Spooner Lake North Canyon Trail, to 4" of new powder partially
filling previously broken tracks in Tahoe Mdws at 20 degree
temperatures. Forget about ascending anything but the gentlest of
grades; these things barely grip even when you stamp 'em in on the flat!

_ Kind of sounds like you might have gotten the skis too long,
although at 220 I can't imagine that you can't decamber the ski.
The paper test is pretty simple though, I suggest you try it[1].


Anyone have any suggestions for an intermediate waxless metal-edge ski
that might be somewhat lighter than the Lookouts, but have a lot more
grip than these Rossignols going up gentle to moderate grades under a
wide variety of conditions -- maybe one of the Fischer models?

_ The fischer base is a negative base, it's fast but not the best
climbing. The skis are very light though.


[I do own skins and have used them from time to time, but would prefer
not to have to mess with them.]

_ Kicker skins would be IDEAL for what you're doing. They are way
simpler than full skins and make a really good addition to no-wax
skis. There isn't a no-wax base make that works very well in icy
early morning conditions so common in the Sierra.


As for the boots, though I miss the feeling of ankle support from the
heavier and higher boots I guess I can live with this; but does anyone
have any suggestions on an NNN-BC boot that would be intermediate in
weight between the old Alpina 2500s and the new Rossignol All Terrains?

_ Ahh, the rub of NNN/BC, the selection of boots just plain
sucks... If you have an Alpina shaped foot you might look at some
of their newer models and Karhu makes some beefier boots as
well. The 2500 was about as beefy[2] as you can get with NNN/BC,
pretty much everything available today will be lighter. With
lighter boots getting a really good fit is important to improving
the control. Definitely get some aftermarket insoles[3] and tweak
your sock combo until you get as little heel lift as possible
when you flex the boot. It's much better to get a lighter boot
that really fits than a heavier one in which your foot slips
around in.

_ If you like double socks in your boots, I think these ones
can really help quite a bit with fit issues. They have
really helped me with my fit problems with my Alpina 2500's.

http://www.techspun.com/


Even though they use my quote on the front page, I don't get
anything from them. I don't really have an Alpina shaped foot,
but since 2500's are the only choice in a beefy NNN/BC boot
I've tried 3 seasons to get them to work. These socks finally
did the trick.

_ Booker C. Bense

[1]- Paper test and lot's of useful advice

http://www.roberts-1.com/xcski/classic/secrets/fit/

[2]- The Alpina 5000, an NNN/BC double boot. Nearly as beefy as
the old Merrel SuperComps. I think there are still two pair
available at Wilderness Exchange in Berkeley. Lot's of other
NNN/BC choices there as well.

[3]- These are a pretty good if the price of custom cork insoles
($100) is too much for you.

http://www.itsyoursole.com/home.htm

I also like the DownUnders as well, you can get them cheap
at the Redwood Trading Post in Redwood City. However, if
comfort is the top proirity, you can't be custom cork
insoles from Cosmo's in Tahoe City.

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