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#1
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click your heels in V2 skate
I just figured out another reactive-force move in skating -- but then I
looked at my videos and saw that (as usual) the elite racers had already been doing it. This little extra move is in the "recovery" of the leg and ski inward, to get them into position to start the next skate-push. The obvious and quick leg-recovery move is to just bring the lower leg and ski inward thru the air, stop them at the correct location, then land the ski straight down into the snow and start pushing the lower leg and ski out to the side (and partly backward) in the direct skate-push into the snow. The extra move needed to get reactive-force benefit is this: Bring the lower leg and ski inward _further_ -- past the location where you intend to land the ski -- further to almost touch the other leg (almost like "click your heels" together). Then start the lower leg and ski moving outward while still in the air, and land the ski at its intended spot with the lower leg already in motion outward, then continue that outward (and partly backward) motion as an active push against the snow. The reactive-force benefit from this extra move is that by starting to move the mass of the lower leg and ski outward while the _other_ ski is still edged and actively pushing, the opposite reactive force is transmitted positively to the other ski which is aimed the opposite way. (But if the start of the outward move of the lower leg is done in the obvious quick way, than the reactive force from accelerating the mass of the lower leg and ski is transmitted _negatively_ thru the edge of the same ski aimed the same way.) Videos: Of the Technic videos on JanneG's website, here is Per Elofsson skating V2 ("1-skate", "double-dance") with the extra inward leg-recovery move: http://avari181.mt.luth.se/Technic/Perelof10.mpg (5.1 Megabytes) The tricky part with video is being able to see clearly where the ski is landed. Otherwise its tempting to think that the ski was _landed_ further inward on its outside edge (usually not a good idea for getting speed when skating on _skis_). I find it easier to see clearly the delay of the moment of landing in a rollerski video, and for that I like this one of Chad Giese demonstrating V2 skate, linked from http://skinnyski.com/training/articl...rskiing-2.html "Click your heels together" -- good or bad? Now I'm thinking that the amazing complexity of Skating has triumphed again, and the answer is, "It depends". more below. Ken _________________________________________________ Exercises for the skier/physicist: (1) How come the elite racers usually do this extra "almost click your heels" move in V2 ("1-skate"), but usually _not_ in V1 ("offset", "paddle-dance")? (2) Which of these variations on the leg-recovery move increases the net overall positive forward-propulsive work from _reactive_ force to the total stroke-cycle: (a) starting the inward move thru the air more _quickly_; or (b) stopping the inward move thru the air more _sharply_; or (c) starting the outward "extra" move thru the air more _quickly_, then "banging" the ski into the snow to start the direct skate-push. (3) Suppose the mass of the skier's lower leg and ski is 15 kg, and the skier recovers the ski inward thru the air _past_ the next snow-landing-position, further inward an extra 15 cm, then moves it outward that same distance with constant acceleration in 0.05 seconds. (a) What is the amount of additional reactive-force work (in Dynes)? (b) If the skier's turnover frequency is 45 complete two-leg-push stroke-cycles per minute and this extra reactive-force work is converted into forward-propulsive work with 50% efficiency, then what is the additional forward-propulsive Power (in Watts)? _________________________________________________ |
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#2
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Of course you know this is sacrilege to New Skate. : )
The John Ahlberg vid on NSR.com show s him definitely putting his new glide foot straight down under his shoulder. It comes back, doesn't go far under body, sets down when it gets under shoulder. I reported on my own V2 developments this summer here already. I found that unless I finished my kick before setting down on my glide ski that I went out of balance to the outside. When I totally finished my kick I found that I was setting down on the glide ski when the leg was under the shoulder area. I was NOT doing heel-click and it seemed to work better without the heel-click. I was having trouble with falling off my power side and getting onto glide side too soon---and losing balance to the outside. I'm not sure that one can be finishing a kick and have the new glide leg near the kicking foot. I realize that you're saying to set the ski down under the shoulder but to start it swinging from near the powerside then set it down---to get reaction from a left leg, say, into a rightside push. I'm not sure what my foot does before it sets down. I was just impressed that for me getting stable meant kicking all the way thru before getting onto the new ski and that that entailed setting the new ski down further away from the other ski than I had been doing. --JP |
#3
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So you're saying I should look at that video instead of Per Elofsson?
Jeff Potter wrote The John Ahlberg vid on NSR.com I'd like to see that video, but I can't find anything like it on that web domain. Where should I look? Is this Ahlberg guy a New Skate leader? or is he that guy who beat Elofsson at Falun three years ago? I found that unless I finished my kick before setting down on my glide ski that I went out of balance to the outside. Well count me as voting in favor of not setting down the next ski until after finishing pushing on the current one (when skating, especially when skating V2). Maybe with V1 (offset up) a real steep hill, some elite racers come pretty close to _almost_ pushing on both skis at once, they're working so much on continuity of push. I'm not sure that one can be finishing a kick and have the new glide leg near the kicking foot. Me neither. I didn't think I was talking about that. Why don't you look at that video I mentioned of Chad Giese doing V2 skate on rollerskis on www.skinnyski.com Ken |
#4
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I'm not sure that one can be finishing a kick and have the new glide
leg near the kicking foot. Wouldn't it be "double push" ? How much reward to the first person achieving it with skis ? ;-) |
#5
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"Ken Roberts" wrote in message ...
So you're saying I should look at that video instead of Per Elofsson? It takes all kinds. The vid I mention shows what the New Skate folks have been saying, is all. Jeff Potter wrote The John Ahlberg vid on NSR.com I'd like to see that video, but I can't find anything like it on that web domain. Where should I look? http://nordicskiracer.com/Training/2...2rollerski.mpg Is this Ahlberg guy a New Skate leader? It's Aalberg actually and he was the best US skier at SLC if I recall. [ ] I found that unless I finished my kick before setting down on my glide ski that I went out of balance to the outside. Well count me as voting in favor of not setting down the next ski until after finishing pushing on the current one (when skating, especially when skating V2). I think it's a common fault to set down too early and to fall off of the push side and thus end up with an unstable glide side. I'm not sure what all I do with the passive leg before set down. In the Aalberg vid it looks like he's just gently bringing the passive leg back under the body then setting it down. Minimal action for him with that leg. I recall seeing this kind of leg action in the Unlimited DVD when Lise' Meloche was doing V2. Maybe with V1 (offset up) a real steep hill, some elite racers come pretty close to _almost_ pushing on both skis at once, they're working so much on continuity of push. I'm not sure that one can be finishing a kick and have the new glide leg near the kicking foot. Me neither. I didn't think I was talking about that. OK, I guess it looks like the passive leg swing happens in the early part of the push. Then what I learned was that you don't set it down til the push is over. Why don't you look at that video I mentioned of Chad Giese doing V2 skate on rollerskis on www.skinnyski.com I looked at some of that. He seems more dynamic than JA with his swinging offside leg before setting down. --JP |
#6
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The John Ahlberg vid on NSR.com show s him definitely putting his new
glide foot straight down under his shoulder. It comes back, doesn't go far under body, sets down when it gets under shoulder. I was at the same clinic with Jeff and John. John took one look at my V2 and said, "You're an inline skater, aren't you?" I was bringing my skiing directly underneath me - basically doing a heal click or close to it. My ski, because it was so far underneath was really on it's outside edge. His comments: 1. You never want the ski on the outside edge. Landing on an outside edge requires you to wait until your ski glides from outside edge, to flat, to inside edge before you can begin your push. And a gliding ski is a slowing ski. 2. On flats, landing on a flat ski is OK. But see above. 3. On uphills, you want to land on an inside edge so you can immediately push off again. Mike |
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#9
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On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 12:26:50 GMT, "Ken Roberts"
wrote: The extra move needed to get reactive-force benefit is this: Bring the lower leg and ski inward _further_ -- past the location where you intend to land the ski -- further to almost touch the other leg (almost like "click your heels" together). Then start the lower leg and ski moving outward while still in the air, and land the ski at its intended spot with the lower leg already in motion outward, then continue that outward (and partly backward) motion as an active push against the snow. Ken, I've recently started doing exactly what you describe with V2 on roller skis because of watching Perelof10 over and over. That outward move just prior to set down was very different from anything I was doing and when I tried it I felt a very DEFINITE increase in power. The technique experts and elite skiers haven't chimed in on this yet, but all I can say is it seems like a good thing to do for me. Jim |
#10
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