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#11
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Wisconsin theory of skating (was forward-step move in skating)
I don't have time to look up articles, but part of the confusion seems to
stem from the fact that it was "new" to some, but not all, in the US. And since the 'some' that didn't find it new were watching Europeans, hence their strong reaction. A reaction which, it appears to me, was rubbed a bit raw by the fact that the 'new skate' was being marketed by an organization in for-profit clinics (however modest the profit). More to the confusion, as I recall (vague memory) the original article(s) (by Pete V?) found support for the 'new skate' in a late 1990s study by Norwegian coaches that compared the Italians and Norwegian style of V-1, rather than in what Alsgaard (and others before him?) had been doing for years. Had the latter been emphasized -- "hey, Americans, we need to catch up here" -- I suspect the reaction would not have been nearly as sharp as it was. (Sometime I'm going to look again at T. Mogren's Gunde Swan's skating to see how they were pushing off.) I first learned skating in 1995 at W. Yellowstone and, to the degree that as an absolute skiing novice just coming off a knee operation I actually learned anything, it was hanging on the pole and such, rather than the emphasis on leg compression that Kevin B teaches. Sometimes when Kevin wants to correct someone (an adult), he'll soften the comment by mentioning that they are doing it the way he and others used to teach several years ago. Gene Nathan Schultz wrote: Gene, I agree with you that it is a dumb name. I've always called it the "new skate" but immediately explained that it is not really new. Unfortunately, due to lack of better nomenclature, people understand what "new skate" describes, but not what the "push with your legs, lean forward at the ankles" skate is. That's why I generally use quotation marks around "new skate". You would be surprised at how many people out there are still skating old school. It is still very new as far as most of the ski community is concerned, although it is finally starting to sink in and be a generally accepted idea. -Nathan |
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#12
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Wisconsin theory of skating (was forward-step move in skating)
Nathan,
Question: Push *off* the legs? As I understand what Kevin B's been telling us, initially the push is compression *into* the upper legs and then ends with "off," skiing going to the side and forward. Gene Nathan Schultz wrote: Jim, Welcome to the "new skate". Make sure you continue working on getting a big push off of those legs, even with the increased tempo. Begin pushing off those legs as soon as they touch the ground and keep pushing throughout the entire stroke. It takes a while to build the necessary strength, but when you pull everything together, those locals will have to watch out for you uphill.... -Nathan |
#13
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Wisconsin theory of skating (was forward-step move in skating)
Let's try that again, maybe a little more clearly:
On the face of it, it appears that part of the confusion and contention about the 'new skate' has stemed from the fact that it was "new" to some, but not to all, in the US. And, since that 'some' which didn't find it new were often experienced coaches who were already watching Europeans skate, they didn't react well to this 'new' technique idea. The reaction may also have been accentuated by the fact that the 'new skate' was being marketed for traveling clinics (however modest the profit). Perhaps also adding to the confusion, I seem to recall (vague memory) that one of the original articles for the 'new skate' based itself on a late 1990s study by Norwegian coaches that compared the Italians and Norwegian style of V-1. Had the focus been more on what Alsgaard (and others before him?) had been doing for years -- "hey, Americans, we need to join the world" -- perhaps the reaction would have been very different than it was. (Sometime I'm going to look again at videos of Torgny Mogren and Gunde Svan to see how they were pushing off.) My first time skating and skating lessons were in 1995 at W. Yellowstone. To the degree that as an absolute novice just coming off a knee operation I actually learned anything, it was hanging on the pole and such, rather than the emphasis on leg compression that Kevin B. teaches. Sometimes when Kevin wants to correct someone (an adult), he'll soften the comment by mentioning that they are doing it the way he and others used to teach several years ago. Gene Nathan Schultz wrote: Gene, I agree with you that it is a dumb name. I've always called it the "new skate" but immediately explained that it is not really new. Unfortunately, due to lack of better nomenclature, people understand what "new skate" describes, but not what the "push with your legs, lean forward at the ankles" skate is. That's why I generally use quotation marks around "new skate". You would be surprised at how many people out there are still skating old school. It is still very new as far as most of the ski community is concerned, although it is finally starting to sink in and be a generally accepted idea. -Nathan |
#14
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Wisconsin theory of skating (was forward-step move in skating)
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 18:55:57 +0000, Nathan Schultz wrote:
Rob, yes you did say that, and quite well. One of the most interesting things I noted from attending the Coaching Symposium that started this thread was that there are a lot coaches out there who do not have a very good handle on technique. Probably 10-20% of the coaches there knew and could understand high-level technique discussions, 40% had a grasp of intermediate technique principles, and the remainder had little concept of even basic concepts. In my experience, most coaches focus mostly on training rather than technique. Then each coach has his own basic understanding about how skiing works and her own understanding of the techniques to practice accompanied by the coaches own unique vocabulary. Ugh. Trond and Pete did a great job integrating everyone and disseminating a lot of knowledge, from basic to advanced. Obviously it has already had an effect, as Jim's experience shows. Yes, it is true that not everyone agrees on every point of technique and training, but what I learned from the weekend was that we (as a country) need to place much more importance on coaches' education and make information accessible to coaches, clubs and skiers around the country. We're not necessarily going to agree about everything, but at least we can develop a framework for basic coaching skills, which is not currently in place. A shared vocabulary would be a start and basic requirement. Better would be a basic agreement on how skiing actually works, which was the reason for this marathon thread. With an shared understanding of how skiing works and a shared vocabulary, there is plenty of room for coaches to have individual drills, emphasis on different techniques and even different styles. In architecture, and now in software development, the idea of putting a label on a concept that all agree to call by name has had tremendous impact. These labels are called patterns and there is tons of information out there on the web if you are interested. But the basic idea is that to promote the diffusion of fairly complicated ideas you have to have a limited shared vocabulary of patterns that are shorthand for both the simple and complex things you do. Then, newbies can learn that vocabulary and concentrate on how to excecute the concepts rather than just make sense of twenty different coaches who kinda,sorta mean the same thing with different words. It would probably require a book by a respected coach to make it happen. Ken's thread about disagreement being fun seems to me to miss Rob's point. I know we all have different goals and motivations for being XC ski nerds, but I (and I think Rob) see the big picture of becoming better skiers as the key to enjoying the sport. Yes, arguing loudly to promote a point of view is fun, and also educational because you have to have your arguments in a clear form to make any progress at all. Rob's frustration is not due to him "trying to take the fun out of it", but being tired of watching people wasting time arguing about things that become self-evident with a little coaching. What was the thread called? A link maybe? |
#15
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Wisconsin theory of skating (was forward-step move in skating)
When I say vertical, I mean vertical as measured against the fall line, which varies with terrain, but is never straight up and down. Then you better explain what _you_ mean by "fall line" and how you expect everybody else to "measure against it". And then you could explain why it's worth it for the rest of us to take the time to _learn_ how to analyze skating in terms of "fall line". This idea, though possibly not the term, comes from Antonina Anikin, via a coach friend who has been attending her classes. It certainly isn't new and isn't my idea. The term is ancient in downhill skiing, though it doesn't mean the same thing. Since you didn't quote any of the text about the dowel balancing on your palm, I have to think it didn't make any sense. Unless I get *really* ambititious and find a way to annotate mpegs to show the lines I'm talking about, I'm not sure how to explain it better. Too bad, I thought the dowel explanation was kind of clever ;-) The line the dowel makes at equilibrium would be described as the fall line. I see that later in the this thread, you mention your uphill technique, cadence and staying relaxed. The thing that helped me the most was the idea that as long as I keep my mass ahead of the fall line, meaning I have to move my skis under me to avoid falling on my face, the proper cadence comes pretty naturally. If you step too far up the hill, your body can actually kind of lean back as you straighten that leg, forcing you to use your poles more and also slowing you down. If you don't step far enough, you don't move past the fall line enough to move much. Your actual cadence is determined by how fast your mass is moving and how steep the hill is. |
#16
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Wisconsin theory of skating (was forward-step move in skating)
Hi Ken,
I hope I didn't make you feel like I was attacking what you were saying. I totally agree with you that it is a messed up situation and that we need better coaching. I wasn't trying to muzzle the discussion of technique or ideas. I was trying to point out that there is a point of becoming superanalytical where we lose sight of what is important. As someone who is coaching, it is frustrating to see people "wasting time" trying to figure out things that should be easily corrected by coaching. It is criminal that with all of the skiers we have here (I'm being provincial, meaning here in the US), that we have so few good coaches and that so few coaches seem to care to educate themselves and be open to other ideas. Every club in the country should be able to find a decent coach that has the technical knowledge to explain these things quickly. Unfortunately, we've developed a system of turf wars where we have perhaps too many coaches and too small of a market and so some coaches feel threatened by others' ideas. Instead of cooperating and collaborating, they're busy cutting each other down so as to sell more books or attract more athletes. I don't know what the answer is. Maybe Rob and I should start an on-line idea police business where we give advice on to which coaches people should listen. Whatever it is, if you want to gain technical knowledge quickly, find a coach or two that you like and can trust, learn from them, and you will do 1000 times better than if you pore over the Master Skier every month and try to figure out everything from reading. -Nathan http://nsavage.com "Ken Roberts" wrote in message ... I'm actually a big believer in live personal coaching, and I've gotten tremendous benefit from it, and I want more of it. Rob Bradlee wrote: This newsgroup has long discussions about things that would made moot by five minutes of live coaching. Yes, but live coaching from _which_ coach? Nathan Schultz wrote: there are a lot coaches out there who do not have a very good handle on technique. That sure fits my experience, and several other people's too. Rob and Nathan already "know" which coaches are right. The rest of us don't. We still have to deal with eloquent articles by respectable coaches in XC ski magazines teaching that old coaching lore -- and claiming to support their old concepts from current World Cup videos. We still have local coaches saying "those new skate concepts may be right for national collegiate champions, but I know what really works in practice for masters citizen skiers." And those old-lore coaches are pretty good at giving live personal tips that _feel_ like they work to lots of citizen skiers. So how are the rest of us going to _decide_ which coach to put our faith in? I don't see much alternative to presenting the diversity of things we're hearing and reading and trying -- and debating about them. And even if you find the "right" experts, what do you do when they disagree? My live personal instructor of my breakthrough "new skate" lesson at a leading ski-skating center tells me that the "forward-step" move is important for me to practice. A week later an expert on this newsgroup tells me "forward-step" is outmoded. Is there some official tribunal I should have gone to for a tie-breaker? Ken |
#17
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Wisconsin theory of skating (was forward-step move in skating)
Maybe Rob and I should start an on-line idea police business where we give advice on to which coaches people should listen. I'm in! Although I don't think the market of skiers seeking coaching is very big. Whatever it is, if you want to gain technical knowledge quickly, find a coach or two that you like and can trust, learn from them, and you will do 1000 times better than if you pore over the Master Skier every month and try to figure out everything from reading. Right on. Rob Bradlee ===== Rob Bradlee Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training |
#18
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Wisconsin theory of skating (was forward-step move in skating)
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Rob Bradlee wrote: Didn't I explain all this last winter in this newsgroup? This demonstrates that everyone needs a coach to show them this and get them to FEEL it. Reading the internet and teaching yourself doesn't work. Funny. The same point keeps getting repeated over and over again on the trumpet players list. :-) -Mitch |
#19
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Wisconsin theory of skating (was forward-step move in skating)
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Nathan Schultz wrote: That is hilarious. Dale Niggeman credited with the "new skate". You do not know how happy that makes me. I am laughing hysterically. That is perhaps the funniest thing I have heard in a long time. Thomas Alsgaard was doing this in 1994. By Dale's own admission on his web site, he figured it out by watching World Cup skiers. There aren't any dates on his web site, but from looking around, it looks like he wrote all of it around 1999, several years after several people in the US were trying to spread the word about this "new" technique meeting huge resistance, mostly from the recreational racing community. Maybe I'm not understanding correctly what is meant by "new skate", but it sure sounds to me like a technique that was first introduced to me by biathletes, who favored it because their gun didn't bounce around on their back so much on the uphills. This was before Alsgaard started making headlines with his unusual technique. -Mitch |
#20
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Wisconsin theory of skating (was forward-step move in skating)
Yes, live coaching is valuable. I've been away from this newsgroup while
trying out as a bicycle coach. . . . lose sight of what is important. Yes, I've been trying get them to learn key things like applying force through the whole stroke cycle, and finding their lactate threshold. But so far I've been failing: http://www.roberts-1.com/t/b03/v I guess I just don't have that special coaching "leadership" focus . . . or something. Unfortunately, we've developed a system of turf wars . . . Instead of coaches cooperating and collaborating, they're busy cutting each other down so as to sell more books or attract more athletes. "normal human society", is my term for this sort of behavior. Providing coaching services is a competitive social status game. Some might say: more interesting than the one-dimensional-racing game. Others might say: a game which at least one "new skate" advocate has pursued with full vigor. One thing I've seen in other kinds of skiing that helps contain the confusion: Somebody writes a really good _book_. Like in the U.S. telemarking scene, Paul Parker wrote the definitive book. And soon it was widely recognized as definitive -- even though telemark ski technique is rather tricky to learn. I don't think the book made very many people think telemark turns could be learned without taking lessons. But at least that book helped educate the _instructors_ -- a function that may be trickier than some people think, judging by my limited live experience with officially-labeled "new skate" coaches so far. Just look at the books in any XC ski catalog or shopping website -- It's not hard to see why there's confusion about skating technique in the U.S. community. Where is there a single book that clearly explains the new skating ideas? As someone who is coaching, it is frustrating to see people "wasting time" trying to figure out things that should be easily corrected by coaching. There's no doubt that doing live coaching is quicker and easier and rewarding (even as an amateur, see above). There's no doubt that writing and drawing good diagrams is harder and slower -- and re-writing and dealing with publishing. So it's very understandable that "new skate" coaches have been putting off writing the definitive book that would provide both broad context and focus on what's important. The result is this: Other instructors may be stuck on old ideas, but at least they've done the _hard_work_ of expressing them clearly in a publicly-available format. Until that "book" gap gets filled, don't be surprised to see amateurs like me stepping into it -- and sometimes adding to the confusion because Yes, we haven't figured out which things are important yet. Ken |
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