A Snow and ski forum. SkiBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » SkiBanter forum » Skiing Newsgroups » Nordic Skiing
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old January 7th 10, 01:40 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Jon[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 50
Default Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating

I've had a few people want to flex test some Fischer Carbonlite's I'm
selling, in spite of the fact that Fischer gives a specific flex
point.

Just curious if anyone has experience with the manufacturer's numbers
being off?
Ads
  #2  
Old January 7th 10, 07:15 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 572
Default Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating

On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 05:40:55 -0800 (PST)
Jon wrote:

I've had a few people want to flex test some Fischer Carbonlite's I'm
selling, in spite of the fact that Fischer gives a specific flex
point.

Just curious if anyone has experience with the manufacturer's numbers
being off?



You didn't say classical or skate, but yes, I read a comment somewhere
to that effect the other day re Fischers and know from my own experience
that the tag numbers are often off a bit. That's part of why, for
example, Zach Caldwell takes a flex tester on his visits to ski
factories and warehouses when picking skis. Another reason is that
it's unusual for ski pairs to have matching flexes, although the
manufacturing technology has improved over the years. The person
measuring them also has to know what they are doing re the brand of
ski, since Carbonlite classics (and skates?) have, or have had,
residual camber by design that other skis don't.

If you're talking about classical skis, the other thing that's very
important (and another thing Zach measures) is the "finish," or closing
flex, i.e., how much pressure it takes to go from a one-leg full-footed
ride to a firm push off from the ball of the foot. Kris Freeman, for
example, exerts a whole lot more force downward than most of us do, and
since he skis relatively upright, he will likely exert more force down
than another racer with a more forward, classical Norwegian stance
(Odd-Bjorn Hjelmeset comes to mind). This is why in general
comparisons between the needs of citizen skiers and what elite racers
use, is dicey at best. And even more so as we age, with muscle power
available seeming to decrease, meaning the need for a relatively or
absolutely softer ski (this is something I've found very few people
selling skis understand, especially younger ones). The closing flex can
be gauged by feel on a board - full foot, paper slides; ball of foot it
doesn't - but more accurately it's measured with a press and digital
meter from the 0.2mm to 0.1mm closure points, at 8cm behind the balance
point (if I've got those numbers right).

Gene


  #3  
Old January 8th 10, 03:28 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Jon[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 50
Default Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating

Gene:

Thanks for the detailed response.

The carbonlites in question are classic's.

Just curious, what is "residual camber?

Jon


On Jan 7, 2:15*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 05:40:55 -0800 (PST)

Jon wrote:
I've had a few people want to flex test some Fischer Carbonlite's I'm
selling, in spite of the fact that Fischer gives a specific flex
point.


Just curious if anyone has experience with the manufacturer's numbers
being off?


You didn't say classical or skate, but yes, I read a comment somewhere
to that effect the other day re Fischers and know from my own experience
that the tag numbers are often off a bit. *That's part of why, for
example, Zach Caldwell takes a flex tester on his visits to ski
factories and warehouses when picking skis. *Another reason is that
it's unusual for ski pairs to have matching flexes, although the
manufacturing technology has improved over the years. The person
measuring them also has to know what they are doing re the brand of
ski, since Carbonlite classics (and skates?) have, or have had,
residual camber by design that other skis don't. *

If you're talking about classical skis, the other thing that's very
important (and another thing Zach measures) is the "finish," or closing
flex, i.e., how much pressure it takes to go from a one-leg full-footed
ride to a firm push off from the ball of the foot. *Kris Freeman, for
example, exerts a whole lot more force downward than most of us do, and
since he skis relatively upright, he will likely exert more force down
than another racer with a more forward, classical Norwegian stance
(Odd-Bjorn Hjelmeset comes to mind). *This is why in general
comparisons between the needs of citizen skiers and what elite racers
use, is dicey at best. *And even more so as we age, with muscle power
available seeming to decrease, meaning the need for a relatively or
absolutely softer ski (this is something I've found very few people
selling skis understand, especially younger ones). The closing flex can
be gauged by feel on a board - full foot, paper slides; ball of foot it
doesn't - but more accurately it's measured with a press and digital
meter from the 0.2mm to 0.1mm closure points, at 8cm behind the balance
point (if I've got those numbers right).

Gene


  #4  
Old January 8th 10, 07:44 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 572
Default Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating

Jon wrote:

Thanks for the detailed response.
The carbonlites in question are classic's.


Warm or cold?

Just curious, what is "residual camber?


My understanding(!) is that it's open camber in front of the kick zone
when the ski is fully weighted, hence residual. Thought that seems
paradoxical, it's the way Fischer built the Carbonlites and I think
even some of the regular RCS classics, their 812 construction types (a
rep told me this year to look for a pair of colds in my flex range with
the longest pocket and most residual camber). In terms of skiing, I
think it fits best with someone who pushes off the ball of the foot, vs.
a more full or mid-foot push off, and perhaps means the need for a
stronger kick at any flex number (with a Fischer ski fullly weighted -
down to 0.1mm - the ski will still be slightly open from the foot
forward). This idea of 'left-over' camber is definitely not traditional
and initially some shops were sending them back. I've heard that this
year's batch of Carbonlites has less residual camber.

Gene


On Jan 7, 2:15*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 05:40:55 -0800 (PST)

Jon wrote:
I've had a few people want to flex test some Fischer Carbonlite's
I'm selling, in spite of the fact that Fischer gives a specific
flex point.


Just curious if anyone has experience with the manufacturer's
numbers being off?


You didn't say classical or skate, but yes, I read a comment
somewhere to that effect the other day re Fischers and know from my
own experience that the tag numbers are often off a bit. *That's
part of why, for example, Zach Caldwell takes a flex tester on his
visits to ski factories and warehouses when picking skis. *Another
reason is that it's unusual for ski pairs to have matching flexes,
although the manufacturing technology has improved over the years.
The person measuring them also has to know what they are doing re
the brand of ski, since Carbonlite classics (and skates?) have, or
have had, residual camber by design that other skis don't. *

If you're talking about classical skis, the other thing that's very
important (and another thing Zach measures) is the "finish," or
closing flex, i.e., how much pressure it takes to go from a one-leg
full-footed ride to a firm push off from the ball of the foot.
*Kris Freeman, for example, exerts a whole lot more force downward
than most of us do, and since he skis relatively upright, he will
likely exert more force down than another racer with a more
forward, classical Norwegian stance (Odd-Bjorn Hjelmeset comes to
mind). *This is why in general comparisons between the needs of
citizen skiers and what elite racers use, is dicey at best. *And
even more so as we age, with muscle power available seeming to
decrease, meaning the need for a relatively or absolutely softer
ski (this is something I've found very few people selling skis
understand, especially younger ones). The closing flex can be
gauged by feel on a board - full foot, paper slides; ball of foot
it doesn't - but more accurately it's measured with a press and
digital meter from the 0.2mm to 0.1mm closure points, at 8cm behind
the balance point (if I've got those numbers right).

Gene


  #5  
Old January 12th 10, 05:33 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 572
Default Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating

To add a bit more information, I'm told the (tear-off) label #s (above
the binding) are actually close with this year's batch, but bench
testing got very different numbers on the carbonlites previously. It
also depends on who's doing the testing and with what equipment (I'll
know more about this soon with a pair of non-carbonlite RCS).
Concerning residual camber and forward lean, it's been pointed out to
me that as we age flexibility in the ankle decreases. So even if one
skis in a flexed forward position, a 50 or 60 year old skier (and
probably most all citizen skiers) will not be able to get the pressure
down on the front of the kick zone that a more flexible and stronger
elite or WC skier can. Important issue in fitting.

Gene


On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 12:44:40 -0700
wrote:

Jon wrote:

Thanks for the detailed response.
The carbonlites in question are classic's.


Warm or cold?

Just curious, what is "residual camber?


My understanding(!) is that it's open camber in front of the kick zone
when the ski is fully weighted, hence residual. Thought that seems
paradoxical, it's the way Fischer built the Carbonlites and I think
even some of the regular RCS classics, their 812 construction types (a
rep told me this year to look for a pair of colds in my flex range
with the longest pocket and most residual camber). In terms of
skiing, I think it fits best with someone who pushes off the ball of
the foot, vs. a more full or mid-foot push off, and perhaps means the
need for a stronger kick at any flex number (with a Fischer ski
fullly weighted - down to 0.1mm - the ski will still be slightly open
from the foot forward). This idea of 'left-over' camber is definitely
not traditional and initially some shops were sending them back.
I've heard that this year's batch of Carbonlites has less residual
camber.

Gene


On Jan 7, 2:15*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 05:40:55 -0800 (PST)

Jon wrote:
I've had a few people want to flex test some Fischer
Carbonlite's I'm selling, in spite of the fact that Fischer
gives a specific flex point.

Just curious if anyone has experience with the manufacturer's
numbers being off?

You didn't say classical or skate, but yes, I read a comment
somewhere to that effect the other day re Fischers and know from
my own experience that the tag numbers are often off a bit.
*That's part of why, for example, Zach Caldwell takes a flex
tester on his visits to ski factories and warehouses when picking
skis. *Another reason is that it's unusual for ski pairs to have
matching flexes, although the manufacturing technology has
improved over the years. The person measuring them also has to
know what they are doing re the brand of ski, since Carbonlite
classics (and skates?) have, or have had, residual camber by
design that other skis don't. *

If you're talking about classical skis, the other thing that's
very important (and another thing Zach measures) is the "finish,"
or closing flex, i.e., how much pressure it takes to go from a
one-leg full-footed ride to a firm push off from the ball of the
foot. Kris Freeman, for example, exerts a whole lot more force
downward than most of us do, and since he skis relatively
upright, he will likely exert more force down than another racer
with a more forward, classical Norwegian stance (Odd-Bjorn
Hjelmeset comes to mind). *This is why in general comparisons
between the needs of citizen skiers and what elite racers use, is
dicey at best. *And even more so as we age, with muscle power
available seeming to decrease, meaning the need for a relatively
or absolutely softer ski (this is something I've found very few
people selling skis understand, especially younger ones). The
closing flex can be gauged by feel on a board - full foot, paper
slides; ball of foot it doesn't - but more accurately it's
measured with a press and digital meter from the 0.2mm to 0.1mm
closure points, at 8cm behind the balance point (if I've got
those numbers right).

Gene


  #6  
Old February 3rd 10, 01:13 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Spunout
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating

On Jan 12, 12:33*pm, wrote:
To add a bit more information, I'm told the (tear-off)label#s (above
the binding) are actually close with this year's batch,


Hi there, is there an interpretation guide to the label numbers? I
read it somewhere here on RSN but can't find it now.

I have a 2010 Carbonlite Classic plus with 'N13891202 Medium' and the
bar codes are '9 002971 223823'. My dealer (very reputable) told me
that these close at 41-43kg, right in my range.

Any takers?
  #7  
Old February 3rd 10, 05:23 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 572
Default Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating

The sticker you're looking for, assuming it wasn't torn off, is the
long thin one laying aside the main sticker that reads like this:
FA:39,98
HR:0,42

I don't know what all those refer to, but the 39 in this case refers
to Fischer's flex measure (skier half-weight 8cm back of balance
point?). While a label scanner and the right software may pick up more
info, you'd probably have talk to a dealer or Fischer rep to get
specifics. Btw, the skis I took this off of were bench tested at ~40.5
(would be a bit more with bindings). But to interpret numbers like
that it's also important to look at how the skis close, both in front
of the foot (where, how much residual camber) and under foot (double
pole vs. striding position), as well as how much pressure it takes to
go from 0.2mm to 0.1mm, i.e., what it takes to close them to the
equivalent of about two layers of hard wax. Skis with the same flex
numbers can have very different characteristics on a variety of
dimensions. And the same skis will feel different to different skiers,
depending on factors like age, technique, strength and ski style.

Gene


On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:13:34 -0800 (PST)
Spunout wrote:

On Jan 12, 12:33*pm, wrote:
To add a bit more information, I'm told the (tear-off)label#s (above
the binding) are actually close with this year's batch,


Hi there, is there an interpretation guide to the label numbers? I
read it somewhere here on RSN but can't find it now.

I have a 2010 Carbonlite Classic plus with 'N13891202 Medium' and the
bar codes are '9 002971 223823'. My dealer (very reputable) told me
that these close at 41-43kg, right in my range.

Any takers?

  #8  
Old February 3rd 10, 07:15 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Norski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating

Hi Gene,
The Fischer numbers are the reverse of what you described. FA is
basically the force to totally compress the ski flat, in this case, a 'flex'
of 39.98 kg. That is very close to the 40.5 kg that you got from your bench
test.
HR is half weight height. The height of the camber when the skier's
weight is evenly distributed on both skis. Your example is 0.42 mm
As you mentioned, the skis come to the dealer with two bar code
stickers. Usually the dealer removes the one sticker when it is sold, as it
is a temporary sticker.
Usually you can scan the remaining sticker to get the numbers, but not
always.

In any case, as Gene points out, the manufacturer's numbers are just
used by the dealers to narrow down the available skis that might fit you,
when you go to purchase a ski. Being fitted on a ski bench is much more
important, as the 2 flex values are only 2 points in the movement of a ski.
What goes on in between the half weight position and the fully closed
position is what determines how a ski feels.
Of course, how the ski feels to you on snow is the most important aspect
of all.

Hope this helps and you are enjoying your new skis.

Paul Haltvick
Bay Design and Build - LLC
Engineering, Construction Services
FSx - Fischer / Swix Racing



wrote in message
...
The sticker you're looking for, assuming it wasn't torn off, is the
long thin one laying aside the main sticker that reads like this:
FA:39,98
HR:0,42

I don't know what all those refer to, but the 39 in this case refers
to Fischer's flex measure (skier half-weight 8cm back of balance
point?). While a label scanner and the right software may pick up more
info, you'd probably have talk to a dealer or Fischer rep to get
specifics. Btw, the skis I took this off of were bench tested at ~40.5
(would be a bit more with bindings). But to interpret numbers like
that it's also important to look at how the skis close, both in front
of the foot (where, how much residual camber) and under foot (double
pole vs. striding position), as well as how much pressure it takes to
go from 0.2mm to 0.1mm, i.e., what it takes to close them to the
equivalent of about two layers of hard wax. Skis with the same flex
numbers can have very different characteristics on a variety of
dimensions. And the same skis will feel different to different skiers,
depending on factors like age, technique, strength and ski style.

Gene


On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:13:34 -0800 (PST)
Spunout wrote:

On Jan 12, 12:33 pm, wrote:
To add a bit more information, I'm told the (tear-off)label#s (above
the binding) are actually close with this year's batch,


Hi there, is there an interpretation guide to the label numbers? I
read it somewhere here on RSN but can't find it now.

I have a 2010 Carbonlite Classic plus with 'N13891202 Medium' and the
bar codes are '9 002971 223823'. My dealer (very reputable) told me
that these close at 41-43kg, right in my range.

Any takers?



  #9  
Old February 3rd 10, 11:41 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 572
Default Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating

Paul, thanks for the correction and explanation. I can add from
recent experience to your comment about the key being between half
weight and closed. I quickly found that the (cold) pair I described
stride ok but seriously drag double poling. With DP, the skier's weight
is what, maybe 75%, and focused several cm farther back than half
weight flex is typically taken? The ok stride told me that residual
camber was compensating in good part for the drag under foot, while the
latter suggested these skis collapse quickly under foot (behind the
ball) with added weight.

Which leaves the question, how can 0.42mm, which is 8-9 standard wax
layers, be insufficient? There seem to be at least two answers. First,
skis don't necessarily close in an even manner across the entire kick
zone (I had a pair of Crowns where just squeezing I could see the front
5+ cm closed right off, which explained the drag). Second, the idea is
to match that 0.42mm with the skier's half weight (with adjustment for
skier's preferences). In my case, at 80kg, the actual measurement seems
to be well less than .42, since I can't use more than about 6 layers +
a thin binder in front of the ball of the foot before seeing drag.
That's a sign that the ski is too soft to be used as a universal cold
ski. Which is the point where one goes back to the seller.

Gene


On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:15:26 -0600
"Norski" wrote:

Hi Gene,
The Fischer numbers are the reverse of what you described. FA is
basically the force to totally compress the ski flat, in this case, a
'flex' of 39.98 kg. That is very close to the 40.5 kg that you got
from your bench test.
HR is half weight height. The height of the camber when the
skier's weight is evenly distributed on both skis. Your example is
0.42 mm As you mentioned, the skis come to the dealer with two bar
code stickers. Usually the dealer removes the one sticker when it is
sold, as it is a temporary sticker.
Usually you can scan the remaining sticker to get the numbers,
but not always.

In any case, as Gene points out, the manufacturer's numbers are
just used by the dealers to narrow down the available skis that might
fit you, when you go to purchase a ski. Being fitted on a ski bench
is much more important, as the 2 flex values are only 2 points in the
movement of a ski. What goes on in between the half weight position
and the fully closed position is what determines how a ski feels.
Of course, how the ski feels to you on snow is the most important
aspect of all.

Hope this helps and you are enjoying your new skis.

Paul Haltvick
Bay Design and Build - LLC
Engineering, Construction Services
FSx - Fischer / Swix Racing



wrote in message
...
The sticker you're looking for, assuming it wasn't torn off, is the
long thin one laying aside the main sticker that reads like this:
FA:39,98
HR:0,42

I don't know what all those refer to, but the 39 in this case refers
to Fischer's flex measure (skier half-weight 8cm back of balance
point?). While a label scanner and the right software may pick up
more info, you'd probably have talk to a dealer or Fischer rep to get
specifics. Btw, the skis I took this off of were bench tested at
~40.5 (would be a bit more with bindings). But to interpret numbers
like that it's also important to look at how the skis close, both in
front of the foot (where, how much residual camber) and under foot
(double pole vs. striding position), as well as how much pressure it
takes to go from 0.2mm to 0.1mm, i.e., what it takes to close them to
the equivalent of about two layers of hard wax. Skis with the same
flex numbers can have very different characteristics on a variety of
dimensions. And the same skis will feel different to different
skiers, depending on factors like age, technique, strength and ski
style.

Gene


On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:13:34 -0800 (PST)
Spunout wrote:

On Jan 12, 12:33 pm, wrote:
To add a bit more information, I'm told the (tear-off)label#s
(above the binding) are actually close with this year's batch,


Hi there, is there an interpretation guide to the label numbers? I
read it somewhere here on RSN but can't find it now.

I have a 2010 Carbonlite Classic plus with 'N13891202 Medium' and
the bar codes are '9 002971 223823'. My dealer (very reputable)
told me that these close at 41-43kg, right in my range.

Any takers?



  #10  
Old February 4th 10, 12:02 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Spunout
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default Trust Ski Manufacturers' Flex Rating

In my case, at 80kg, the actual measurement seems
to be well less than .42, since I can't use more than about 6 layers +
a thin binder in front of the ball of the foot before seeing drag.
That's a sign that the ski is too soft to be used as a universal cold
ski. *Which is the point where one goes back to the seller.


FWIW, I've found that 50% is the softest RCS one might ski (If you
were a 'shuffler'). I wanted to make sure that my current skis are
about 60% of weight, and this range seems to be sufficient to ski
'athletically', use a lot of wax and still get some glide. Pocket
distribution is so important (and tough to test), layers need to be
built up according to how the camber closes.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is flex good in a roller ski? Has anyone tried the Ski Skett Flex Skate roller skis? mountainwalker Nordic Skiing 0 April 15th 07 08:31 PM
European P-Tex Extruder Gun Manufacturers/Retailers Memascii European Ski Resorts 2 May 6th 05 04:45 PM
Snowboard Manufacturers and Retail Outlets BarB Snowboarding 2 November 25th 03 02:07 AM
Ski binding settings, do you trust DIN recommendations? John Alpine Skiing 9 November 20th 03 11:57 PM
Ski Flex? Bob Creasote Nordic Skiing 12 August 26th 03 03:26 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SkiBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.