Poles / No-poles Skating experiment

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 14:46:42 GMT, "Ken Roberts"
wrote:

True, you cannot fully replicate the low skating position when you add
poling, but you can get closer to it. And it's worth learning.

Mark Frost wrote
my xc-ski speed last weekend was from getting low to the
ground, which I cannot replicate when using poles.

It's sounding like you've been getting the worst of both worlds:
ineffective pole-push which is also compromising your skate-push. Here's an
approach for getting closer to the "best of both" in your Open Field Skate
(V2A) or V2 techniques:
(0) Learn to drop your hips low in your pole-push.
(1) Start your pole-push _before_ your leg-push.
(2) As your hips are getting lower in the pole-push,
that's the time for your big skate-push out to the side.
(3) Thrust your hips up forward again _immediately_
at the end of your skate-push
(4) Double benefit.

Details:

(0) Learn to drop your hips low in your pole-push.
Get lots of practice on pure double-poling (with no-skate-push). The
objective for addressing your "getting low" concern is to discover how use
bending your knees and dropping your hips back to actually power your
pole-push. Turns out that lots of the power in elite double-pole technique
comes from the _legs_. The big problem is how to get you abdominal and
chest and arm muscles to _transmit_ this leg power to the poles, instead of
just absorbing it.

This is partly neural coordination, but it's more about specific muscle
strength. Fortunately you were doing some of those "core stability"
exercises in the off-season, right? (Actually my approach is to train those
"core" muscles to _add_ power of their own, not to just stably transmit it
from the legs).

One opportunity for a quick fix: Most people extend their hands and arms
too far out in front, because they think poling is about using their arm
muscles. But for _transmitting_ force it works better to bend the elbows at
least 90 degrees, and have your elbows back somewhere near the side of the
chest when you start the pole-push. I like to "wing" my elbows out a
little.

(1) Start your pole-push _before_ your leg-push.
Short quick crunch like Rob said. I will add: Don't worry about trying to
push toward the back. Even if push goes mainly _down_, once you're up to
speed, there's a magic in the physics that transmutes your downward push
into forward motion power. Just like you can push out toward the side in
your leg-push.

(2) As your hips are getting lower in the pole-push,
that's the time for your big skate-push out to the side. Your instinct from
inline skating is right: you hips must get low in order to effectively use
your big leg muscles to push. It's just geometry.

(3) Thrust your hips up forward again _immediately_
at the end of your skate-push. This is where most snow skating is different
from inline skating, where you want to stay low for the aerodynamics. For
the most effective skating with poles, you need your hips up and forward
again _before_ the start of your next pole-push, so you can use gravity and
your leg power effectively in your double-pole push, like you learned in
step (0).

(4) Double benefit:
With this forward hip thrust move, you get to effectively use your big leg
muscles _twice_ in each stroke to deliver forward-motion power: first in
the skate-push out to the side; second by building potential energy through
lifting the upper body which is released into the pole-push.

Ken


I think we need a non-divx .mpeg to give this some justice :-)

Ben

How about this Per Elofsson MPEG on JanneG's website:
http://avari182.mt.luth.se/Technic/perelof10.mpg

I like this video for the style of V2 skate that I'm talking about, because
Elofsson takes a slower turnover frequency with big range of motion. I like
to call this style "big V2", with the theme of maximum physical work out of
each stroke cycle. (for another style I call "quick V2", see zorsi.mpg)

Here's some things to look for in the perelof10.mpg video -- viewed in slow
motion (I like the single-frame advance in the Apple Quicktime viewer):

In the first section, in front view, see:
(1) how explosively he makes his pole-push down, initiating with crunch of
abs-chest-shoulders. Then he drives his hands all the way down from
shoulder-level to waist-level in just 3 frames of video.
(2) see how his _hips_ drop almost in unison with hands (that's how he gets
low).
(3) Legs: he's started to edge the new ski before his hands get down to his
waist. He even _pushes_ the ski out out to the side from the higher hip
position (already applying leg power using his smaller hip-abductor
muscles -- a good skill to learn and train on inline skates). You might
think, "See, there's his skate-push simultaneous with pole-push, so that
dis-proves the concept of early pole-push before skate-push."
(4) but then comes his _main_ skate-push out to the side from the now-low
hip position -- with range of motion nearly twice as big as that initial
edging and hip-abductor-push seen in (3), _after_ the pole-push is mostly
over.
(5) during this skate-off there's a small rotation of his shoulders toward
the next side. This adds power to the main skate side-push, through a
"reactive" force. Another example of how the winners have moved beyond the
New Skate.

In the side-view section, see:
(1) how amazingly high he gets his hip up at the start -- almost straightens
his knee joint.
(2) hands start almost back by his head, not way out in front. Elbows start
_behind_ the head.
(3) two-thirds thru the pole-push -- hands at waist-level: but the Elbows
are _still_ bent a full 90 degrees. And the hands got there by moving
vertically _down_, not backward. (but surprise: the pole tips have somehow
pushed to way back behind his feet).
(4) pole-tips come off the snow, but there's still pushing out on the ski
with his leg for at least 2 more frames.
(5) he's starting to lift his back and head even _before_ his next ski
lands.
(6) the instant he lands the new ski, he move his hips forward and up.
(7) feel how much _lifting_ work it took for him to _get_ there, in
recovering from his low-and-back hip position where he finished his previous
push, lifting the weight of his upper body in a move which in an indoor gym
would be called a "one-legged squat lift" or "single-leg press". (not sure
if the isometric tendency of inline and ice speedskating trains the leg very
well for this key component of elite V2).

Ken

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 14:10:10 GMT, "Ken Roberts"
wrote:

How about this Per Elofsson MPEG on JanneG's website:
http://avari182.mt.luth.se/Technic/perelof10.mpg

I like this video for the style of V2 skate that I'm talking about, because
Elofsson takes a slower turnover frequency with big range of motion. I like
to call this style "big V2", with the theme of maximum physical work out of
each stroke cycle. (for another style I call "quick V2", see zorsi.mpg)
SNIP

Wow, I haven't had a chance to go through it step by step but it looks like a
very thorough analysis. (and non-divx g).

Thanks.

Ben

My latest attempts on Sunday to combine skating with poling are up on the
web at
http://roberts-1.com/t/xc034/a/p1
The "big" style video down under "V2 skate" is my current attempt to
practice those moves I saw in the Per Elofsson video on JanneG's website:
http://avari182.mt.luth.se/Technic/perelof10.mpg

I'm not getting as much upward extension as Elofsson, but I still call it
"big" because I'm seeing my leg-push continue for 2 or 3 frames after my
pole tips come off the snow. In the video of my "quick" style V2, I'm
seeing my leg-push finish about simultaneous with my pole-push, and I show
even less upward extension at the start.

During last week, I was working on implementing my own advice about how to
combine poling with all my leg-training from inline skating. Trying to
focus more on the initial crunch: with hands starting further back, curling
thru my chest to drive the poles down-ward. Consciously dropping my hips
with the pole-push, to get my leg into the best configuration to exploit the
power of my inline-skating push.

The changed _balance_ from the new extra power of this explosive
forward-fall crunch was so scary I couldn't make myself continue to practice
it on pavement, even with the resistance on my rollerskis set higher.
Fortunately the wide spaces and friendly snow at Mt Van Hoevenberg on
Saturday provided the right environment to allow my cerebellum
super-computer to start the calculations for how to get control over it.

Ken

Ken,
Last summer you posted rollerski videos of yourself and what I saw was the
most perfect example of athletic ski straddling I'd ever seen (granted I
couldn't observe myself in past years). In your new V1 videos on snow there is
some change, while in the V2 ones it's similar to last summer. I admire your
joy and courage in putting up these videos, and I take it as a request for
suggestions. I don't think a newsgroup or written words is the best place to
get the level of attention and quality of instruction you merit. I suggest a
series of lessons during the season and off-season from a good instructor (or as
part of a masters' group), as well as hours and hours of practice no-pole
skiing. In the meantime, I think given your more experienced level, you would
benefit enormously going step-by-step through the new Lee Borowski video.

Gene Goldenfeld


Ken Roberts wrote:

My latest attempts on Sunday to combine skating with poling are up on the
web at
http://roberts-1.com/t/xc034/a/p1
The "big" style video down under "V2 skate" is my current attempt to
practice those moves I saw in the Per Elofsson video on JanneG's website:
http://avari182.mt.luth.se/Technic/perelof10.mpg

I'm not getting as much upward extension as Elofsson, but I still call it
"big" because I'm seeing my leg-push continue for 2 or 3 frames after my
pole tips come off the snow. In the video of my "quick" style V2, I'm
seeing my leg-push finish about simultaneous with my pole-push, and I show
even less upward extension at the start.

During last week, I was working on implementing my own advice about how to
combine poling with all my leg-training from inline skating. Trying to
focus more on the initial crunch: with hands starting further back, curling
thru my chest to drive the poles down-ward. Consciously dropping my hips
with the pole-push, to get my leg into the best configuration to exploit the
power of my inline-skating push.

The changed _balance_ from the new extra power of this explosive
forward-fall crunch was so scary I couldn't make myself continue to practice
it on pavement, even with the resistance on my rollerskis set higher.
Fortunately the wide spaces and friendly snow at Mt Van Hoevenberg on
Saturday provided the right environment to allow my cerebellum
super-computer to start the calculations for how to get control over it.

Ken

Thanks for your helpful observation about my V2 technique, Gene. Especially
in that video clip of my "quick" style up the hill, I am seeing very little
side-to-side weight commitment. Looks like I'm focused all on the straight
up-and-down double-poling.

Oddly, I'm a believer in side-to-side motion nowadays (though less in V2
than in V1). And I recently I pointed out the sideways shift in a Per
Elofsson's V2 video as a refutation of the "quiet upper body" religion. But
last week I got so caught up in trying to learn a new optimal _timing_ of
the sideways commitment move in V2 -- and failed to achieve it -- so then I
just forgot to do any side-move at all.

Gene's practical observation comes just in time for my race on New Years
Day. Since I'm not going to achieve the perfect optimum by then, I better
go back to my previous merely good side-to-side move.

Gene Goldenfeld wrote
hours and hours of practice no-pole skiing.

I like that advice, but it cannot help me now. Because I already do so many
hours of skating with no poles that I cannot imagine how I could raise the
percentage. I don't even _like_ skiing with poles on dry land (see my
earlier posts in this thread). I finished yesterday's session at Mt Van Ho
by thrashing my legs, skating with no poles on snow.

Anyway, my side-to-side move with no-poles is too radical -- try to imagine
my Nose way _outside_ the line of my Knees and Toes. When I did it on snow
at Mt Van Hoevenberg in the last couple of weeks so Sharon could videotape,
a local skier actually ran over to tell me how weird it looked.

But that way I do that would interfere with any effective poling motion --
so _my_ puzzle is to find a _different_ side-to-side move which is as
effective as my current no-poles move, but also enables good poling.

Any ideas for that? Something new in Borowski's new video that I haven't
seen already in his book?

Ken