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#101
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Baka Dasai wrote:
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:54:38 -0800, lal_truckee said (and I quote): Baka Dasai wrote: Nobody carved a turn on those, not even Stenmark. You need to get out more ... you missed a good 80 years of skiing... What? Did I miss some era where skis had carvable sidecuts? I note you didn't quote my comment about how much you'd have to bend a 60 metre radius ski to carve a 10 metre radius turn. Figure it out yourself - it's not that difficult. I'll give you a hint - sidecut radius and turn radius are different - think ski angle to the snow. And yes, carving has been going on for many decades - as one part of the complete toolbox required for proficient skiing. When you've figured it out, come back and maybe we'll talk some more - until then ... |
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#102
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"Mary Malmros" wrote in message ... lal_truckee wrote: Carving is a tool. Useful, but one cog in the wheel of skiing; there's Cog in the _wheel_??? Since when do wheels have cogs? Five points off for mixed metaphor, lal. -- Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, other days you're the bug. Well, there are the cog wheels on a cog railroad. C. |
#103
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Baka Dasai wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:34:47 -0800, lal_truckee said (and I quote): Baka Dasai wrote: I note you didn't quote my comment about how much you'd have to bend a 60 metre radius ski to carve a 10 metre radius turn. Figure it out yourself - it's not that difficult. I'll give you a hint - sidecut radius and turn radius are different - think ski angle to the snow. Um, lal, you don't seem to be reading me. Of course sidecut radius and turn radius are different - that's why I'm talking about 60 metre skis carving 10 metre circles. For your benefit, why don't you check out this carving calculator: http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze...lculator1.html It shows what it takes to carve a 60-metre sidecut ski into a 10-metre turn: Speed: 60 km/h Inclination: 70 degrees Angulation: 10 degrees So if you could drag your hip along the snow throughout a 60 kmh turn, then I guess you could carve a "straight" ski. When you've figured it out, come back and maybe we'll talk some more - until then ... Oh my. holds up hand I've got a couple of question here. What exactly are inclination and angulation as used here? What makes you think I won't be traveling at 60 km/h? How do these calculators account for the amount the ski will bend? Based on the weight of the skier? Flexibility of the skis? These calculators are for snowboards. Does a ski behave exactly the same as a snowboard? Answer is yes, but it would be my opinion that a ski would be easier to flex (usually) than a snowboard. Also, a longer ski would flex more than a short snowboard. We ARE talking longer skis here, in that "straight" skis were skied in lengths exceeding what is popular today. LAL, for instance still skis on Volkl P30's in, if I remember, 205cm. My recollection was that while he could carve nice big arcs, he preferred going down hill at mach 4. In my 20's, 40 years ago, I remember having GREAT days when I would ski down the mountain feeling great, laying down great big GS turns. Almost no snow was being thrown up in these turns. The main limiting factor, IMO to carving in those days was not the ski, it was the boot. I remember feeling the boot bend sideways. That is, when I pressed really hard on my edges, the ski did not stay perpendicular with my shin bone. This was due to the fact that the boots were bending side to side and not just fore and aft as they should have been. In other words the angle of the ski to the snow was not the same as your angulation (as I understand the word). As an interesting aside. I have a pair of circa 1965 skis in good working order. I take them out once in a while. The particular skis I have are easy turning, gentle, yet competent Head 360's. Today with modern boots I can hardly get them to turn at all but back then I thought they were the bomb. My technique has evolved with the equipment so that it no longer works well with old style equipment. At any rate, we certainly could carve with our skis back then. I think I woke up to the fact that I could make skis carve when I got my first stiff boots. First early Langes (first year they came with buckles) and the really radical Rosemounts which were really neat when you could get the pads to work right. VtSkier |
#104
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David Harris wrote:
Mary Malmros wrote in news:zPadnb6fFbW4AWbcRVn- : David Harris wrote: Pure carving, w/o skidding is a racing technique. How come Bode Miller skids? Deliberately? IOW, in the real world, it ain't all as cut and dried as that. I agree with that - I should have been more clear. My point was that pure carving carries the most speed through a turn,which makes it important and suitable to racing, and less essential to free skiing. So how come Bode Miller often skids deliberately? Because he doesn't want to use a tool that is important and suitable to racing? Because he's so much better than everyone else and doesn't want to make them look bad? Racers also need to lose speed on occasion to keep to an achievable line. Slalomers also need to snap their skis around faster than a pure carve allows, and will do that as necessary. It's much more than "on occasion", given current course sets and conditions. Go browse the SR archives; there's a link in there to an off-the-cuff (but still excellent) explanation by Bode. -- Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, other days you're the bug. |
#105
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VtSkier wrote:
[snip] What makes you think I won't be traveling at 60 km/h? You might be...but you won't be dragging your hip on the snow while you're doing it. -- Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, other days you're the bug. |
#106
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Mary Malmros wrote in
: David Harris wrote: Mary Malmros wrote in news:zPadnb6fFbW4AWbcRVn- : David Harris wrote: Pure carving, w/o skidding is a racing technique. How come Bode Miller skids? Deliberately? IOW, in the real world, it ain't all as cut and dried as that. I agree with that - I should have been more clear. My point was that pure carving carries the most speed through a turn,which makes it important and suitable to racing, and less essential to free skiing. So how come Bode Miller often skids deliberately? Because he doesn't want to use a tool that is important and suitable to racing? Because he's so much better than everyone else and doesn't want to make them look bad? He does this when he has to, I assume. As do all racers. Why else would he do it? Racers also need to lose speed on occasion to keep to an achievable line. Slalomers also need to snap their skis around faster than a pure carve allows, and will do that as necessary. It's much more than "on occasion", given current course sets and conditions. Go browse the SR archives; there's a link in there to an off-the-cuff (but still excellent) explanation by Bode. What are the SR archives? Actually, there's probably no need, I think we are in agreement. If you disagree with the amount, i.e. "on occasion", then no big deal. It was just a phrase - not intended as an absolte measure. If it's something else, please explain. I'll try again - the point I wanted to make is that a lot of people seem to be obsessing over two-ski carving as the ultimate goal in skiing. I thing there a number of other ways to enjoy a day on the slopes, and that pure carving is of primary importance to racers, who are measured. If I skid a bit on the way down, I'm losing time, but no one is measuring that, so I'm not all that concerned - which I think is the same for the majority of recreational (i.e. non-racing) skiers. Thanks, dh |
#107
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From the write-up, it's pretty clear that ski / snowboard flex isn't
considered. Although he mentions the concept a few times, it never enters into his equations. Hence, these calculations are really good for the Binford Steel I-beam ski construction. However, when a ski is properly loaded, the flex is VERY significant, when compared to the unloaded sidecut. When on edge, the weight shifts from the center of the ski to the tip and tail, which forces the ski to bend into a much tighter radius edge. A ski with only a cm, lets say, of side cut now flexes several inches toward the center of the circle identified by the radius. The result? A greatly reduced turn radius due to the "new" ski radius. I have a set of old Rossi 4XKs that had almost no visible sidecut. I don't know what the radius of the edge was.... but it wasn't much. However, when you put them on edge and they loaded up and flexed, they turned like demons, enought that initiating the next turn just meant "relax" and fall down the hill.... they'll catch up quickly. The new skis with the much more pronounced sidecuts (I now ski K2 Axis XPs) essentially make this transition much easier, but the concept is the same. - Steve "Baka Dasai" wrote in message ... On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:56:48 -0500, VtSkier said (and I quote): Baka Dasai wrote: For your benefit, why don't you check out this carving calculator: http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze...lculator1.html It shows what it takes to carve a 60-metre sidecut ski into a 10-metre turn: Speed: 60 km/h Inclination: 70 degrees Angulation: 10 degrees So if you could drag your hip along the snow throughout a 60 kmh turn, then I guess you could carve a "straight" ski. What exactly are inclination and angulation as used here? Inclination is the angle from your centre of gravity (COG) to your skis/board. Zero degrees is standing perfectly upright, 90 degrees is lying down on the snow. Angulation is the angle you bend at the hips, knees and ankles. Typically you want your upper body to be more upright than your lower body. This brings your COG closer to your edges and improves your balance. More info is at at: http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/physics.cfm That article is based on Skiing Mechanics, by John Howe: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg.../-/0935240020/ What makes you think I won't be traveling at 60 km/h? Nothing. It's fast, but not ridiculously so. But can you imagine a 10-metre radius turn at that speed? With your COG at 70 degrees? How do these calculators account for the amount the ski will bend? Based on the weight of the skier? Flexibility of the skis? That's a good point. An extremely stiff ski would require more speed to bend it. I understand the physics only so far and I don't know how the model accounts for stiffness. And skis are a little more complicated because there are two of them. The skier can put all their weight on their outside foot, thus putting double the force onto the ski and bending it more. Or they can balance their weight across both feet, and bend their skis less. These calculators are for snowboards. Does a ski behave exactly the same as a snowboard? Answer is yes, but it would be my opinion that a ski would be easier to flex (usually) than a snowboard. I think it's hard to say for sure. Snowboards range from the very soft to the very stiff. Also, a longer ski would flex more than a short snowboard. Longer skis are made stiffer to compensate. They also usually have bigger sidecut radius's. In my 20's, 40 years ago, I remember having GREAT days when I would ski down the mountain feeling great, laying down great big GS turns. Almost no snow was being thrown up in these turns. Snow gets thrown up in a carve because the snow that was in the trench has to go somewhere. See: http://www.extremecarving.com/photos/03html/j01_03.html for an example. And if you doubt that guy is carving, check the movie: http://www.okao.com/films/2004/wmv/lifted.wmv (Windows Media) http://www.okao.com/films/2004/mov/lifted.mov (Quicktime) At any rate, we certainly could carve with our skis back then. Not for the whole turn. I can't imagine it being possible to carve the downhill edges on skis with such a large sidecut. -- What was I thinking? |
#108
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"Steve FZ1" wrote in message ... From the write-up, it's pretty clear that ski / snowboard flex isn't considered. Although he mentions the concept a few times, it never enters into his equations. Hence, these calculations are really good for the Binford Steel I-beam ski construction. However, when a ski is properly loaded, the flex is VERY significant, when compared to the unloaded sidecut. When on edge, the weight shifts from the center of the ski to the tip and tail, which forces the ski to bend into a much tighter radius edge. A ski with only a cm, lets say, of side cut now flexes several inches toward the center of the circle identified by the radius. The result? A greatly reduced turn radius due to the "new" ski radius. I have a set of old Rossi 4XKs that had almost no visible sidecut. I don't know what the radius of the edge was.... but it wasn't much. However, when you put them on edge and they loaded up and flexed, they turned like demons, enought that initiating the next turn just meant "relax" and fall down the hill.... they'll catch up quickly. The new skis with the much more pronounced sidecuts (I now ski K2 Axis XPs) essentially make this transition much easier, but the concept is the same. - Steve And on high speed SG turns I used the whole ski so the bend was overall and easy to understand. Reading your post made me consider the slower, slalom and powder turns. It starts at the tip, bending the front of the ski. Works to the middle and finally off of the tail. I wonder what the radius is of the front 1/3 of the ski when the turn is initiated? pigo |
#109
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Baka Dasai wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:35:10 +1100, ant said (and I quote): What you are saying applies to hard booters, but I'd dispute your claim regarding softers. It may be a regional thing. I'm in Japan - things can be different here. Ok. Fair enough. My experience is limited to North America. If you spent any time here you would see that the vast majority of snowboarders scrape and skid. Your would also encounter large swaths of scraped off boilerplate, caused primarily by the heel-scraping snowboarders mentioned above. Japan may well be different. -- //-Walt // // There is no Völkl Conspiracy |
#110
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Baka Dasai wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 10:51:50 -0500, Walt said (and I quote): Baka Dasai wrote: On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 15:35:10 +1100, ant said (and I quote): What you are saying applies to hard booters, but I'd dispute your claim regarding softers. It may be a regional thing. I'm in Japan - things can be different here. Ok. Fair enough. My experience is limited to North America. If you spent any time here you would see that the vast majority of snowboarders scrape and skid. Oh, it's much the same here in Japan. What you're saying is not inconsistent with my earlier claim about the relative proportions of carving snowboarders and carving skiers. Your would also encounter large swaths of scraped off boilerplate, caused primarily by the heel-scraping snowboarders mentioned above. Large swathes of scraped-off boilerplate existed prior to snowboarding, for the same reasons it exists now. In this part of the world (Northeast USA) as you say, large swathes of scraped-off boilerplate existed prior to snowboarding. This is a true statement as far as it goes. What you don't say is where the scraped-off boilerplate existed in those halcyon days. And I've said this before. The blue trails may well have been scraped off by snowplowing skiers, HOWEVER: If a skier got caught on a trail that was above his or her ability to ski because of steepness and/or bumps, he or she would be hesitant to do it again. Most skiers of that lack of ability haven't yet been taught proper sideslipping (chicken plow) to get down a tough area. Snowplow is way too exhausting a method of slowing down for neophyte skiers so that when they do get to the bottom, they will generally not go back for a second dose. Snowboarding is different in that heel-side scraping is not particularly tiring and so the boarder will go back and do the tough trail again and again, scraping on their heel- sides until nothing is left on the trail. Especially on the downhill sides of bumps. Chicken plow on skis requires more skill and concentration than heel-side scraping by a snowboarder. The argument is whether or not snowboarders affect the snow quality on a ski hill better/worse or same/differently than skiers. The argument has been made that hard-boot (I loved the picture of the franken-boot in the bomber website photos) carving board riders do not affect the snow any differently than do skiers of similar skill. This is an absolutely true statement. I will also go so far as to say that a soft-boot rider who has attained a level of skill adequate to the trail he/she had decided to ride will also not affect the snow quality any or much differently than a skier of equal skill. What I will say is that there are hundreds or even thousands of poorly skilled snowboard riders who are heel-side scraping down upper level trails and slopes and making a mess of the hill. All we ask is that these riders please learn the use of their tool before tackling upper level pistes. I would also ask that (probably these same) riders learn a little etiquette on the hill by not stopping and sitting where they are obstructing passage on a trail. These same "sitters" are not only endangering other people on the hill, but they are endangering themselves by exposing themselves to being hit by other snow sliders, especially where they stop in a spot that can't be seen very well from above. VtSkier |
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