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Huge variety of winning styles: Ian Harvey in new Master Skier



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 18th 08, 12:48 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)
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Posts: 121
Default Huge variety of winning styles: Ian Harvey in new Master Skier

I just read the new Master Skier. It has a cover story by Ian Harvey
that says there are lots of very different ski techniques that winners
use.

....Straddling or total weight shift. Forward torso or twisting torso.
Steady or lots of up and down. Long or short strokes. Stepping up the
hill...or not.

They all work for stars who we can point to.

So what's the right way to ski?
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  #2  
Old March 18th 08, 03:01 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Default Huge variety of winning styles: Ian Harvey in new Master Skier

I've heard that article cited a lot online, which I'm not sure is
entirely a good thing. Like in any sport, there are individuals with
different styles that have been successful. Harvey is correct there. My
sense is that it typically has to do with the way an individual learns
the sport and adapts to their own anatomy, especially while growing up.
However, the problem in evaluating any style is that there are usually
no comparison points, i.e., between an individual's peculiarities and
their doing it another, more biomechanically efficient way. What Harvey
(and others) miss is that without a determined attempt to change,
there's no way to know how successful the individual could be or could
have been (in pro golf, think Jim Furyk vs. Tiger Woods). Instead, they
look at the results sheet and reason backwards. That said, the implied
point that coaches should tread lightly with individual styles is a
good one.

The other thing about the article, and to speak directly to your
question, is what Harvey doesn't say: no matter what the style there
are certain things in technique all good skiers have in common. In
talking about differences, it seems even more important to identify
those. Level hips and shoulders, quiet upper body, starting poling with
an ab crunch and often shoulders), ankle flex throughout the cycle, hips
forward at the key moments, starting glide with a flat or outwardly
turned ski, are some that come to mind.

RM



"Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)" wrote:

I just read the new Master Skier. It has a cover story by Ian Harvey
that says there are lots of very different ski techniques that winners
use.

...Straddling or total weight shift. Forward torso or twisting torso.
Steady or lots of up and down. Long or short strokes. Stepping up the
hill...or not.

They all work for stars who we can point to.

So what's the right way to ski?

  #3  
Old March 18th 08, 05:37 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)
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Posts: 121
Default Huge variety of winning styles: Ian Harvey in new Master Skier

If we could dig in enough and interview skiers they might be able to
give us these missing datapoints. Even video might show it, if anyone
cared. That is, I suspect that top skiers have indeed tried various
other methods (based on their own initiative, coaching, imitation,
whatever), even for a decently long time, and found them lacking so we
still end up with this variety of style in top finishers. So that you
might be able to get info on a particular skier using a wide variety
of styles themselves.

It would be good to find the common traits. But are you sure about the
ones you list? Offhand, the "quiet upper body" one might conflict with
a comparison that Harvey made between champs who stayed low and those
who rose up and crashed down---that sounds like more "bobbing."

Technique is a freaky thing. I had brief periods in 2 sports where I
got pretty good---in both cases technique became more important yet
"doing it my way" also became dominant, not only that but as I became
fitter "my way" acquired a wider range. It got more particular and
general at the same time. It was fun! I suppose it's important to keep
trying, testing, measuring.
  #4  
Old March 18th 08, 10:26 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Posts: 74
Default Huge variety of winning styles: Ian Harvey in new Master Skier

It takes a lot of courage, some analytical ability and perseverance to
be willing to change styles. Those are not equally distributed, and the
short career time frames and financial and performance pressures skiers
deal with tend to discourage most attempts. It's not like a golfer,
such as Tiger Woods, who is looking at a 30 year career. But Bente
Skari did it with her skate technique. Comparing the skate styles of
Virpi Kuitunen and Justyne Kowalcyzk, such as in last Sunday's
final, the inefficencies in the latter's poling style presumably
contributed a bit to her exhaustion in the last K or two (as did
her pushing the pace from early on).

My list wasn't meant to be complete, but quiet upper body is definitely
one of them. It refers primarily to lateral motion, not the up and
down created by ab crunch with shoulders. In Sunday's races, Todd
Lodwick (WCSN) was able to pick up on the first climbs who was tired by
that extra upper body movement (Marit Bjoergen).



"Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)" wrote:

If we could dig in enough and interview skiers they might be able to
give us these missing datapoints. Even video might show it, if anyone
cared. That is, I suspect that top skiers have indeed tried various
other methods (based on their own initiative, coaching, imitation,
whatever), even for a decently long time, and found them lacking so we
still end up with this variety of style in top finishers. So that you
might be able to get info on a particular skier using a wide variety
of styles themselves.

It would be good to find the common traits. But are you sure about the
ones you list? Offhand, the "quiet upper body" one might conflict with
a comparison that Harvey made between champs who stayed low and those
who rose up and crashed down---that sounds like more "bobbing."

Technique is a freaky thing. I had brief periods in 2 sports where I
got pretty good---in both cases technique became more important yet
"doing it my way" also became dominant, not only that but as I became
fitter "my way" acquired a wider range. It got more particular and
general at the same time. It was fun! I suppose it's important to keep
trying, testing, measuring.

  #5  
Old March 20th 08, 06:09 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Posts: 99
Default Huge variety of winning styles: Ian Harvey in new Master Skier

On Mar 18, 5:48*am, "Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)"
wrote:
I just read the new Master Skier. It has a cover story by Ian Harvey
that says there are lots of very different ski techniques that winners
use.

...Straddling or total weight shift. Forward torso or twisting torso.
Steady or lots of up and down. Long or short strokes. Stepping up the
hill...or not.

They all work for stars who we can point to.

So what's the right way to ski?


Jeff,

In re-reading my copy of Master Skier (a benefit of AXCS membership),
Ian summarizes "the right way to ski" on the last page of the article
with the common elements to good technique.

Edgar
  #6  
Old March 21st 08, 12:36 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Posts: 74
Default Huge variety of winning styles: Ian Harvey in new Master Skier

If you're referring to "Finding Your Own Way" on page 30, he does not.
Ian poses some questions about style choices skiers might make, such
as skiing off the whole foot or ball/toes and then makes some general
'feels good' points. However, the common elements of all good skiers,
such as the ones I suggest, are not spoken to at all in the article.

Roger

wrote:

In re-reading my copy of Master Skier (a benefit of AXCS membership),
Ian summarizes "the right way to ski" on the last page of the article
with the common elements to good technique.

Edgar

  #7  
Old March 21st 08, 05:01 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Posts: 99
Default Huge variety of winning styles: Ian Harvey in new Master Skier

On Mar 20, 5:36*pm, wrote:
If you're referring to "Finding Your Own Way" on page 30, he does not.
Ian poses some questions about style choices skiers might make, such
as skiing off the whole foot or ball/toes and then makes some general
'feels good' points. *However, the common elements of all good skiers,
such as the ones I suggest, are not spoken to at all in the article.

Roger *



wrote:
In re-reading my copy of Master Skier (a benefit of AXCS membership),
Ian summarizes "the right way to ski" on the last page of the article
with the common elements to good technique.


Edgar- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Sorry, I was refering to the Ian Harvey article "Find Your Own Way" of
the Mid-Season 2005-2006 edition. In that article, he concluded with
7 principles that apply to all. The 2005-06 article is Part 1 with
the Race Season 2008 "Finding Your Own Way" marked Part 2.
  #8  
Old March 21st 08, 01:33 PM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)
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Posts: 121
Default Huge variety of winning styles: Ian Harvey in new Master Skier

On Mar 21, 1:01 am, wrote:


Sorry, I was refering to the Ian Harvey article "Find Your Own Way" of
the Mid-Season 2005-2006 edition. In that article, he concluded with
7 principles that apply to all. The 2005-06 article is Part 1 with
the Race Season 2008 "Finding Your Own Way" marked Part 2.


Ha!

So what were they?

How did you find the article? Do you have them indexed? I checked the
website and didn't see it.
  #9  
Old March 22nd 08, 03:39 AM posted to rec.skiing.nordic
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Posts: 99
Default Huge variety of winning styles: Ian Harvey in new Master Skier

On Mar 21, 6:33 am, "Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)"
wrote:
On Mar 21, 1:01 am, wrote:



Sorry, I was refering to the Ian Harvey article "Find Your Own Way" of
the Mid-Season 2005-2006 edition. In that article, he concluded with
7 principles that apply to all. The 2005-06 article is Part 1 with
the Race Season 2008 "Finding Your Own Way" marked Part 2.


Ha!

So what were they?

How did you find the article? Do you have them indexed? I checked the
website and didn't see it.


Here goes for those of you who didn't keep your old Master Skier
copies.

Ian Harvey, "Find your own way", Master Skier Mid-season 2005-06 on
page 54. Ian writes (with some abbreviation on my part):

"Here are some principles that I feel apply to all:
1. In skating, the quadriceps group must be engaged as the primary
source of propulsion from the legs (vs. glutes).... This turns the
skating motion from one of pushing down and back (glutes) to directly
efficient forward motion (think shin angle).
2. In Classic, the quads group is used to compress the camber of the
ski and the hamstring group then acts to provide forward motion. ...
hamstrings do not just work the knee joint but also the hip joint....
3. In all techniques, there should not be much motion in the chest
area.
4. Section of the course where deceleration plays a role require a
high tempo and abbreviated weight transfer.
5. A technique that works for you is one whereby you can continue to
fight once you get tired....
6. Using body weight to help poling is obviously a good thing. The
trick is to do this without losing the effectiveness of the legs.
7. In Skating, within a given technique there can be different gears
which can be attained by making slight changes in rhythm, weight
transfer, and tempo."


To put Ian's conclusion in perspective, he says this at the start of
the article:

"Over the past few years, there has been much weighing-in on technique
from highly qualified experts. Much of this information has also
contradicted itself depending on the source and context. Despite
this, I believe that when seen in the proper perspective, the
information exchanged was positive and should lead to individual
improvement."

Ian also talks about: "There is no optimal technique" and "We are all
different with different geometries, muscle make-ups, fitness levels
and even attitudes".


How' that Jeff. I hope I didn't violate any copyrights. If I did,
sorry Ian and Greg.
 




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