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#11
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New Board Time, opinions sought…. Looks like not Donek....But what?
Hi Neal,
What makes you sure they need all that particular stuff in order to build what your son needs? Plus I'm pretty sure Sean has a press, otherwise he wouldn't be building anything. Thats what I figured, but I watched the layup video and never saw it go in. At any rate, the boards everyone talks about here are the Inclines. Sean has two more models coming out this year, one for freestyle, one for freeriding which is more general-purpose than the Incline. They're not on the website yet, just drop Sean an email and ask. I'm sure he'll be happy to tell you about them. I might do that. I have heard some negative sides to the Inclines stiffness that might land my son into a tree. He really likes to rip through trees, so the new board needs to be nimble, yet stable when told to hold a line. The park is just stuff to do while hanging with friends. Not that high on the priority list. Thanks, Chris |
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#12
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New Board Time, opinions sought.. Looks like not Donek....Butwhat?
Hi Mike,
Well I watched the Donek layup video and missed the press usage. It is quite possible they did not put it in the video as the press use would be implied after the board was layed up. I too have learned not to always trust/buy everything a salesman is trying to sell you, which makes this job even tougher. There is a minus side to the Donek Incline. Some people off of this forum have noted that it is not very nimble except at high speeds. This could cost my son dearly as he navigates trees. As you stated, not all boards are for everyone. My sons priorities for a board would be: Freeride trees, jumps and pops (High) Bombing and carving (Medium) Park, pipe, rails (Low) Someone in another post mentioned that Donek might be introducing a freeride board. It might be a possibility. Sure is hard to sort through all this hype from the manufactures! Thanks, Chris Mike T wrote: Looks like Donek is a great stiff single purpose board. But, No torsion box(es). No Carbon Stringers. No Kevlar Stringers. No tail/tip honeycomb. No board press to push out excess resin. Please correct me if I am wrong, but this tells me that at this time, they cannot build a multi-faceted, multi-purpose board. Sort of a must for my son. whoops, hit "send" prematurely on that last one.... Christopher, don't believe everything you read in snowboard companies' marketing literature Torsion boxes and stringers and honeycomb inserts aren't necessary to build a multi-faceted board although the companies that use those methods would certainly have you think so. (Neither are quadratic sidecuts for that matter ) IMHO, many of the boards with torsion boxes have a "metallic" feel to them. Your son would feel that more acutely than I gievn that he's only a little over half my weight. Bottom line... any board is going to be better at some things than others. The Donek Incline is better at carving and bombing than rails and butters. It doesn't mean you can't do any freesrtle trick you want on it. You see kids bombing on their Forums all the time, don't you? Same thing in reverse. -Mike T P.S. Note suere where you got the one of about not having a press either - they've got one. |
#13
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New Board Time, opinions sought.. Looks like not Donek....But what?
May I suggest chaeking out www.lib-tech.com and their "Harc Carving
Freestyle" series of boards. I have ridden 2 different Emma Peels from this line and they truly are "quiver killers". |
#14
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New Board Time, opinions sought?. Loo ks like not Donek....But what?
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#15
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New Board Time, opinions sought?. Loo ks like not Donek....But what?
Christopher Cox wrote in message .. .
Looks like Donek is a great stiff single purpose board. But, No torsion box(es). No Carbon Stringers. No Kevlar Stringers. No tail/tip honeycomb. No board press to push out excess resin. Please correct me if I am wrong, but this tells me that at this time, they cannot build a multi-faceted, multi-purpose board. Sort of a must for my son. So far Solomon, Ride (Prophet), Rossignol (Avalon, Maybe), and Burton (Custom X) have some interesting offerings. Thanks for everyone's input so far. Chris Chris everything above can make a board a good board, but it's important to know WHY these design choices were made and whether it works - otherwise you are just a slave to marketing gimmick. In the future, try to do more research before knowingly making ignorant claims. A few quick points (all of which you could have found out if you searched the web or past newsgroup postings): 1. Torsion boxes have been around for over a decade (from ski design). Both them and torsion forks are basically designed to fine tune the flex, balancing springiness with torsional stiffness (for better and quicker energy response). Donek is very torsional rigid and is amazing responsive... but it DOES tend to be less forgiving, where is what torsional box/forks try to be both (any don't always succeed). The drawback of torsional boxes is all that extra material adds weight, which isn't great if your are a small/light snowboarder. Oxygen had some pretty mediocre boards with torsional box/forkes. Neversummer uses it in their Premier line, but those boards are heavy, the Evo doesn't have it to be lighter, but it isn't stable enough for most freeriding (park only board). I don't think Salomon or Burton use the design at all (maybe the Carbon Beam is a tiny bit like a TBox). 2. Carbon/Kevlar stringers do the same thing. Give the board more pop without adding too much weight. The Donek is not the most poppy board, but it isn't bad at all. The stiffer Salomons like the Definition are down right "dead" in terms of pop. The Burtons might be poppier... but they use lightweight woods instead. 3. Tip/tail honeycomb justs saves weight by less than half a pound and reduces the moment of inertia of the board every so slightly (supposedly for easier spins). 4.Donek does use a press. It isn't in the video because it would be really boring to watch an inanimate object do nothing for a long time. Actually their press is much better than the balloon press that many big brand companies use. Ok, now back to the topic at hand. Forget even thinking about park boards, you son won't need it starting out (he could still ride the 144 if he wanted to). I agree that tree riding is not the Incline's strength. Now as other people have mentioned, you could consider demoing the new Donek Phoenix or Twintip boards. If you are still not into Donek I think Salomon makes a great board as well - I would suggest the Amp or Forecast (that's the 450, right Mike?) but not the Definition or Fastback. Those are my personal suggestions as I like Donek and Salomon. I don't think the Custom X is going to be a good board for you son though (too stiff and too expensive for a growing boy)... maybe the Custom if you HAD to by a Burton board. Ride Timeless is decent, but just not as good quality or value for your money as Salomon or Donek in my opinion. Go for a medium length board (150-152) with a medium flex. |
#16
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New Board Time, opinions sought.. Looks like not Donek....But what?
There is a minus side to the Donek Incline. Some people off of this
forum have noted that it is not very nimble except at high speeds. This could cost my son dearly as he navigates trees. As you stated, not all boards are for everyone. My sons priorities for a board would be: Freeride trees, jumps and pops (High) Bombing and carving (Medium) Park, pipe, rails (Low) Someone in another post mentioned that Donek might be introducing a freeride board. It might be a possibility. Sure is hard to sort through all this hype from the manufactures! Hey, if you son REALLY like going in the trees a lot, may you could get try the Burton Fish 150. It is made for the trees and is extremely nimble, the tradeoff its that it isn't as stable at high speeds. I just got one on Ebay to complement my Donek Incline as the two are complete opposites. I haven't ridden it, so I can't give you a review on it. I was thinking the funky design might be too much for a 12 year old, but then again - it WAS designed by Terje Haakonsen from Burton... so maybe that will make it cool enough. The best thing is that is they are going on Ebay for $120-$150 (75-80% off). With that type of price, you could afford to get you son two boards... one for the trees and one for bombing and thereby avoid trying to get a Jack-of-All-Trades board. |
#17
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New Board Time, opinions sought?. Loo ks like not Donek....Butwhat?
Hello Arvin,
First, I would like to thank you for the well thought out, informative response. I am not really pro or anti anything. You probably noticed me tempering the Pro Donek groups suggestions with healthy skepticism, and the Burton Bashing with a good look before dismissal. You posted great information concerning different board technologies. It really begs the question why someone has not pulled all the different technologies together successfully. Perhaps it is/was to labor intensive and costly to do so. A good for instance would be torsion boxes. I noted from the manufactures illustrations they seem to be manufactured from a heavier/stronger wood. This is an area where graphite fiber would shine. A torsion box layed up on a 3D mold would end up being strong, ridged and light. Now add Kevlar close to the edges to dampen vibration while adding strength. Carbon fiber stringers could add stability, liveness and pop. Honeycomb Tip and Tail would make the board easier to spin. And all of this would cost a fortune! But it could be a cool board.... Maybe.... Heck I don't know, and that is the problem. :-) So, board companies press boards with the wood already layed up? I imagined they would have pressed the composite material before adding the wood to keep from compressing the wood itself. Speaks for the strength of the wood. Again, thanks for all the information. Well done. Chris |
#18
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New Board Time, opinions sought?. Loo ks like not Donek....But what?
Chris,
Adding all that stuff doesn't necessarily make a better board. Definitely heavier, stronger and maybe even bulletproof though. Honeycomb in the tip & tail make it lighter and helps with dampening but doesn't help the spin. An overall lighter swing weight is what makes it easier to spin or rather it takes less speed and strength to bring it around. Carbon Fiber and Kevlar have different properties including different directional strengths. Carbon Fiber is lighter and has more pop than glass or other top sheet material, has a high tensile strength but isn't very tough. It tends to snap violently and should be used in conjunction with glass for safety sake. Kevlar is a great material but a pain to work with.since it always frays when you cut it. If you want fibers poking out of the sidewall then sure use it. Also both are much more expensive than standard materials but can be done on a custom. Personally I'm not a fan of torsion boxes since that means weakening the core by cutting a hole in it. Basically the core (the wood) is the heart and soul of the snowboard. Different companies use different combinations of woods and different layup techniques when putting them together all dependent on the board the core is being used on. Hence our race boards are much stiffer than our freestyle boards. Back to the original topic... You're looking for a board for your son who: 1. Loves bombin' the trees 2. Loves beating Dad down the hill 3. Likes to kick it in the park with his friends Sounds likes my kind of riding. My main on snow "job" is teaching advanced riders ages 13-18 that ride really hard with our time spent split between the steeps and trees at Alpental and hitting the parks. I've ridden almost every board on your list (I even have a Ride Prophet sitting in the closet) and even a few more but I like my Donek the best. In the ten weeks (Sat & Sun) of class with those kids I destroyed 2 burtons (one delam, one snapped tail), turned the ride into a noodle and my Donek was the only one to make it through the last half of the class and the end of season which included 2 road trips (Steven's and Hood). Make a list of what are important factors to you i.e. quality, riding ability, terrain, etc. then find what fits. If you need the specs for the Phoenix let me know and I will send them to you. -- Kevin Morrison Donek Snowboards Northwest Rep 206-227-3073 "Christopher Cox" wrote in message ... Hello Arvin, First, I would like to thank you for the well thought out, informative response. I am not really pro or anti anything. You probably noticed me tempering the Pro Donek groups suggestions with healthy skepticism, and the Burton Bashing with a good look before dismissal. You posted great information concerning different board technologies. It really begs the question why someone has not pulled all the different technologies together successfully. Perhaps it is/was to labor intensive and costly to do so. A good for instance would be torsion boxes. I noted from the manufactures illustrations they seem to be manufactured from a heavier/stronger wood. This is an area where graphite fiber would shine. A torsion box layed up on a 3D mold would end up being strong, ridged and light. Now add Kevlar close to the edges to dampen vibration while adding strength. Carbon fiber stringers could add stability, liveness and pop. Honeycomb Tip and Tail would make the board easier to spin. And all of this would cost a fortune! But it could be a cool board.... Maybe.... Heck I don't know, and that is the problem. :-) So, board companies press boards with the wood already layed up? I imagined they would have pressed the composite material before adding the wood to keep from compressing the wood itself. Speaks for the strength of the wood. Again, thanks for all the information. Well done. Chris |
#19
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New Board Time, opinions sought? Ok, maybe Donek.....
Hello Kevin,
Thanks for your reply. First off, what Donek Freestyle board? I was leaning to a Donek Incline 155, but reviews of the board found it pretty stiff. Don't misunderstand me, reviews on the net can be scarce and pretty poor, I am just seeking information. I am leaning towards a mid-flex very stable board at this time. I have some questions for you. I can gleen some important data from a boarder with the same riding aspirations as my sons. What Donek board are you riding now? What is your weight and height? What boot are you using? My son is 100 lbs, 5'6". He is currently in football training which means is is likely to gain 5 to 10 lbs before the snow hits if history serves. Thanks for your input, Chris |
#20
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New Board Time, opinions sought? Ok, maybe Donek.....
I have some questions for you. I can gleen some important data from a
boarder with the same riding aspirations as my sons. What Donek board are you riding now? What is your weight and height? What boot are you using? Chris, I ride the Twin 161. I'm 6'1" and 195 lbs. I use Salamon boots since they are the stiffest and have the smallest footprint (no toe drag). The Twin has a softer flex than what you're looking for. For an incredibly stable mid flex board I would go with the Phoenix 155. It has an 8 meter sidecut and the nose, waist and tail measurements are as follows: 29.6 cm, 24.8 cm, and 29.4 cm. I plan on picking up one of the larger models (163w) for boardercross. -- Kevin Morrison Donek Snowboards Northwest Rep 206-227-3073 |
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