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#1
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What is important for ICE grip?
What is the most imprtant factor for the snowboard to hold the edge on ice?
Stiffness, length, edge type... Can a softer FS board hold the edge like a FR board? |
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#2
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What is the most imprtant factor for the snowboard to hold the edge on
ice? Stiffness, length, edge type... Before I discuss my opinions on "edge hold on ice" I would like to qualify then by saying that IMHO, a discussion of edge hold on ice only makes sense within the context of carved turns, i.e., turns where all points on the edge go through the same thin track in the snow (except at the moemnt of edge change, and still you are not sliding) rather than "slide" or "skidded" turns. Reason being, edges don't *grip* when you are sliding. Also please acknowledge that a board with better edge grip may be harder to slide, skid, and jump turn; I am limiting my response to "what grips best on ice" and not "what's easiest to ride to get down a steep narrow icy slope". Now having said all that... a combination of the following seems to help me the most on ice: 1) Dampness. With a damp board, you feel less vibration and it "feels less icy" than on a more lively board. This tends to lead to more confidence on ice. 2) Effective edge length. Up to a certain point, I find longer boards grip ice better. And that point is a *lot longer* than most people think. Longer edges that are engaged in a carve tend to stay that way and that's exactly what you need on ice. Of course you need to be skilled enough to get the board on edge in the first place. Which itsef is a lot easier if you have a.... 3) Soft enough flex. Yes, the board needs to be stiff enough to support the rider's weight, but within the range that is appropraite for one's weight, softer boards are generally easier to ride on ice. The reason is simple - a softer board is easier to bend into an arc without riding aggressivley. And most of us prefer to use finesse more than muscle on ice, since finesse leads to fewer painful falls. 4) Things like flex pattern, sidecut shape, and construction make it all come together. The key is to get the right mix, some boardmakers seem to have this dialed better than others. I've got boards with circular, elliptical and quadratic sidecuts that all hold a mean edge because flex pattern complements that sidecut shape. Can a softer FS board hold the edge like a FR board? Absolutely. As long as the flex is right for your weight and it's not *too* short you should be fine! In fact a well-designed freestyle board needs to have plenty of edge grip, as halfpipes are often icy as all hell. BTW: I definitely find hardboots are easier on ice, because it's easier to get the board high on edge. With regards to length: for freeride boards, I really like to have at least 130cm of effective edge for ice, preferably more; that's a 170+ in most brands. For alpine boards, about 155 cm of effective edge is where it starts for me. (Also 170+ for most brands). My two best ice boards are a Madd 170 and a Coiler PR 188. Both boards are very, very damp, have a flex pattern that is easy in the mid-section, and they grip like demons. For soft boots, my old, worn-out Donek Incline 168 gets the call; it's got the length and the flex has softened due to use and it works great. Now back to my 1st paragraph... Longer boards will hold an edge easier but you need to have the skills and gumption, not to mention the room on the trail, to keep it on edge on ice. Longer boards are harder to skid, and harder to jump-turn, and for all-mountain riding you *need* these tools! If you want to practice carving on ice, the place to do it is on a nice long wide beginner run, where you can get some speed going and carve across the hill to bleed it off. Unfortunately, budding carvers need to go fast enough to not tip over and this is *very unnerving* on ice as you tend to pick up speed very easily. Remember to *breathe and stay loose* as you practice. I hope this helps. Some of it may be counter-intuitive at first, but keep and open mind and it hopefully starts to make sense. Mike T |
#3
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Thank you very much.
This is the most helpful answer I got on a newsgorup ever! |
#4
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You may also want to check out the new "magne-traction" shapes that
lib-tech has; http://www.lib-tech.com/tech/magneTr...eTraction.html If you haven't seen them, the board edge is wavey, not the traditional sidecut straight edge. I was riding with a guy last week who was demoing one of these. It was a pretty icy night and he was very impressed with the edge hold. Then again, most brand new boards have pretty darn good edge hold before you muck them up on rocks...anyway, worth looking into. -t |
#5
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todd wrote:
You may also want to check out the new "magne-traction" shapes that lib-tech has; http://www.lib-tech.com/tech/magneTr...eTraction.html If you haven't seen them, the board edge is wavey, not the traditional sidecut straight edge. it sounds like an interesting gimmick, might work too...but doesn't Lib mostly make park boards? Palmer has some interesting sidecuts on their top-end boards like the Crown and others....it's supposed to have 'continuously' different radii, probably thanks to some computer / mathematical design. it's a new feature, supposed to be a notch above tri-radial sidecuts they usually offer. I have yet to try it out but should be getting it on my next board if I go with one of theirs, so we'll see if I notice any difference.....I think the point is better carving and snap out of turns, not necessarily for better edgehold on ice, but that might result as well. bri -- * enjoying the karma * remove LKJSDFJSD from address to email |
#6
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Torsional stiffness is probably the most important thing in generating good
edge hold in a turn. Put the board between your feet and try to twist it with you hands. You'll get an idea for a stiff board and a soft one quickly. Next would be an even flex pattern. Grab the tip of the board and push near one of the insert patterns while looking down the board. If the board has dramatic bends or kinks when bent like this, it's not likely to hold well on ice. If the stffness falls off rapidly towards the tip and tail you'll loose a lot in edge hold as your weight will be distributed over a very short portion of the edge. Edge hold and stability at higher speeds will be improved as overall stiffness increases. The above all cover board characteristics. The biggest problem I see is a lack of tuning. Maintaining a good sharp edge is terribly important. -- Sean Martin Donek Snowboards Inc. http://www.donek.com/ phone:877-53-DONEK "Andrej" wrote in message ... What is the most imprtant factor for the snowboard to hold the edge on ice? Stiffness, length, edge type... Can a softer FS board hold the edge like a FR board? |
#7
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Sean Martin wrote:
Torsional stiffness is probably the most important thing in generating good edge hold in a turn. Put the board between your feet and try to twist it with you hands. You'll get an idea for a stiff board and a soft one quickly. That explains why my Donek hugs the ice while my old board would (flex and) slide out from under me. I stopped fearing ice almost immediately after starting to use my Wide. We have lots of ice in the midwest, at least in my area. Rarely any powder. Even rarer is dry powder. And because we are shy folk we ride it in the dark! :-) Most resorts in my area open in the evening during the week. So, just about when the sun sets and the hills set into ice is when I can get on them. Dean |
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