learning V1: my videos + story from last week

Gene Goldenfeld wrote in message ...
[hopefully reformatted]

"Sly D. Skeez" wrote:

So what should you work on? Balance!! You should strive to always be
in perfect balance because from good balance comes coordination and in

.... I race against some guys who are damn fast but don't look to
sweet doing it. They have good balance but an odd style. I hope they
never get great balance and good style.

Jay Wenner


I think these are really good observations. While I agree that the
specific skills you've suggested are necessary for good skating, I disagree
-- at least at this point in my learning process -- with the emphasis
you've placed on developing good balance for a learner.

Ok, here's what I saw (last week). Again, from memory

-Ken is hunched over and skis with his butt in a bucket
-He doesn't extend forward (hips forward) or backward (with hands and
feet)
-He doesn't straighten a leg or open his hips
-His shoulders are very low as a result, but because his poles are the
"correct" length, his hands are still high

-This is a terribly inefficient position, and most of the problem
could be solved if he stands up. Get those shoulders up there, get
over the poles not underneath and behind them.
-Ken would _naturally_ go towards a more efficient technique except he
doesn't have the confidence to do so. (I think) his balance drives him
into a lower, more stable position. This is a really common problem or
look of "inexperienced" skiers. There's no embarassment, it's just
that he's at this point on the learning curve.
-So Ken, if you can stand up, do that, run some more video, and the
analysis here will completely change. By stand up, I mean in V2 and
open field, you have open up the hips (may feel like the shoulders are
going back and you're flexing at the ankles more) and fire the hands
and feet so the knees and elbows straighten out. Similar things should
happen in V1

Jay

All I was saying in a long winded way was that telling someone who
hasn't gotten the technical fundamentals yet that the problem is balance
(or commitment) is pedagogically not very helpful. I think most adults
make the biggest initial strides in balance improvement through learning
proper technique.

What I saw on the rollerski and ski videos Ken posted is that he
doesn't fall from ski to ski but instead steps ski to ski, essentially
raising one foot then the other from the cockpit position. This is the
perfect straddling position I was referring to. Rising in his stance
will definitely help in the process of learning to fall from ski to ski
and in developing the comfort to carry each foot forward in getting
ready for the next skate. Once that's picked up, however, it is time to
do them more aggressively by moving into a ski stance. A champion
mountain biker, referred to in the Borowski video, calls it the "attack"
position. I'm sure you'll understand the image. Right now, Ken's
picked up all these bits and pieces from technique articles,
instruction, discussions and wherever, mixed them with his biomechanical
analyses, and come out very confused on skis and in his head. It
strikes me that the best way out is to put that all aside and start
again. That does take some humility, tho.

Gene



"Sly D. Skeez" wrote:

Gene Goldenfeld wrote in message ...
[hopefully reformatted]

"Sly D. Skeez" wrote:

So what should you work on? Balance!! You should strive to always be
in perfect balance because from good balance comes coordination and in

.... I race against some guys who are damn fast but don't look to
sweet doing it. They have good balance but an odd style. I hope they
never get great balance and good style.

Jay Wenner


I think these are really good observations. While I agree that the
specific skills you've suggested are necessary for good skating, I disagree
-- at least at this point in my learning process -- with the emphasis
you've placed on developing good balance for a learner.

Ok, here's what I saw (last week). Again, from memory

-Ken is hunched over and skis with his butt in a bucket
-He doesn't extend forward (hips forward) or backward (with hands and
feet)
-He doesn't straighten a leg or open his hips
-His shoulders are very low as a result, but because his poles are the
"correct" length, his hands are still high

-This is a terribly inefficient position, and most of the problem
could be solved if he stands up. Get those shoulders up there, get
over the poles not underneath and behind them.
-Ken would _naturally_ go towards a more efficient technique except he
doesn't have the confidence to do so. (I think) his balance drives him
into a lower, more stable position. This is a really common problem or
look of "inexperienced" skiers. There's no embarassment, it's just
that he's at this point on the learning curve.
-So Ken, if you can stand up, do that, run some more video, and the
analysis here will completely change. By stand up, I mean in V2 and
open field, you have open up the hips (may feel like the shoulders are
going back and you're flexing at the ankles more) and fire the hands
and feet so the knees and elbows straighten out. Similar things should
happen in V1

Jay

Wew. Ken, you are a courageous man.

The front view - need more commitment on the gliding ski (i.e. more
glide on the outside edge of the ski).

I agree about need more commitment onto the ski. So I practiced and
practiced on Thursday and Friday, and it felt like I had gotten it. But
then Sharon videotaped me yesterday Sunday, and I still wasn't actually
getting there.

Current sitation: My shoulder is better committed, but my hip is still not
getting over the ski.

This was a pretty disconcerting finding, so I looked closer at JanneG's
technique videos. Here's my latest diagosis.

My problem is simply that I'm landing my ski too far out to the side. The
reason is that I'm afraid that if I land it closer in, I'll plant the tail
down on top of the tail of the other ski. This is because I'm stepping to
the side.

I think the solution for me is to step more _forward_, so then there will be
more space to land the tail of my next ski.

Unless I learn to _land_ my ski closer in, there's no way I can commit to it
or stay over it -- takes too much work and wastes too much time to get my
center of mass that far out to the side.

Ken
________________
Andrey Revyakin wrote:
need more commitment on the gliding ski

I agree with the observations that I don't consistently drive my hips up and
forward (especially in my V1) -- and I think there are two underlying
reasons.

Jay Wenner wrote:
-So Ken, if you can stand up, do that, run some more video,
and the analysis here will completely change. By stand up,
I mean in V2 and open field, you have open up the hips

My theory is that I have not done that enough because:

(1) I cannot make an effective leg-push from a high hip position because I
do not land my ski under my hip. My uncoscious cerebellum muscle-controller
perceives that I'm not getting any leg-push benefit, so it goes back to
omitting the move as soon as my conceptual cerebrum turns its conscious
attention to some other problem. So I revert back to a lower hip position,
because that's the where I can really push from with my ski too far out to
the side.

(2) I had not understood until recently the improved leverage from making my
pole-push from a more _forward_ shoulder position, as opposed to just a high
position. So I've only started feeling the benefit of driving my hips
forward _in_order_ to drive my shoulders into the "forward fall". Todd
Carter pointed this out to me at Van Hoevenberg on Thursday, that I was
missing out on the benefit of the forward fall -- and then I was able to
enjoy the new power in the glorious conditions we had there on Friday.

In my side-view V2 video I see a one-frame hesitation after I get my hips
high, like I'm pausing to savor the achievement of having reached the goal
of the high-hips position. But in the Elofsson V2 video, when he reaches
the high-hip position in his V2, he's _already_ started driving and dropping
his shoulders into the forward fall, before planting his pole. I've gotten
so focused on the _high_ part that I get my hips and shoulders high
simultaneously -- and then it seems too high, because my pole tips are too
far off the snow to start pushing.

(So again my unconscious cerebellum says "so what was the point?", and
reverts back to omitting it. Then it starts trying _other_ things with my
upper body in desperation to make up for not getting enough range in my
early leg push and not enough forward-fall leverage on my pole-push).

My bet is that once I link those two pre-requisites (pushing from
underneath, and forward fall), and my cerebellum controller starts _feeling_
the double benefits of the hip-up-and-forward move, then I will have no
problem "remembering" to do it, and no problem with confidence and balance
up there.

Ken

I hesitate to give advice, as I'm sure a video of my technique would be an ugly
sight indeed, but I don't think you should worry about stepping on the tail of
your ski. I think it's a good sign that you're getting your weight over that
gliding ski and if you're afraid you'll trip yourself up, don't worry ... the
ski slides over the other ski very easily. ( If you get really good at it, you
can start to wax the tails of your ski with a special very expensive wax made
specifically for this purpose which comes in 6 colors and temp ranges. ; )

Ron

Ken Roberts wrote:
snip
My problem is simply that I'm landing my ski too far out to the side. The
reason is that I'm afraid that if I land it closer in, I'll plant the tail
down on top of the tail of the other ski. This is because I'm stepping to
the side.

I think the solution for me is to step more _forward_, so then there will be
more space to land the tail of my next ski.
Ken

I don't think stepping over the tail of your ski a little bit is a big
problem. Since you are stepping *forward* with your gliding ski, you
should not catch your pushing ski's tail.

May want to try to skate on freshly groomed trail, or on a trail with
some fresh powder on it, and examine your tracks. Basically, the
tracks should look like a christmas tree, with the "branches"
connected, but w/o criss-cross patterns (the latter would be indeed a
sign of landing on tails of the skis).

"Ken Roberts" wrote in message ...
I agree about need more commitment onto the ski. So I practiced and
practiced on Thursday and Friday, and it felt like I had gotten it. But
then Sharon videotaped me yesterday Sunday, and I still wasn't actually
getting there.

Current sitation: My shoulder is better committed, but my hip is still not
getting over the ski.

This was a pretty disconcerting finding, so I looked closer at JanneG's
technique videos. Here's my latest diagosis.

My problem is simply that I'm landing my ski too far out to the side. The
reason is that I'm afraid that if I land it closer in, I'll plant the tail
down on top of the tail of the other ski. This is because I'm stepping to
the side.

I think the solution for me is to step more _forward_, so then there will be
more space to land the tail of my next ski.

Unless I learn to _land_ my ski closer in, there's no way I can commit to it
or stay over it -- takes too much work and wastes too much time to get my
center of mass that far out to the side.

Ken
________________
Andrey Revyakin wrote:
need more commitment on the gliding ski

"Ken Roberts" wrote in message

Current sitation: My shoulder is better committed, but my hip is still
not
getting over the ski.

This was a pretty disconcerting finding, so I looked closer at JanneG's
technique videos. Here's my latest diagosis.

My problem is simply that I'm landing my ski too far out to the side. The
reason is that I'm afraid that if I land it closer in, I'll plant the tail
down on top of the tail of the other ski. This is because I'm stepping to
the side.

I don't think you were landing too far out, just not allowing your hips to
be pushed over enough. Feel your pelvis being pushed to the other side by
your push. At the risk of having you over analyze, there's a sequence of 30
photos showing one complete cycle of Marcus Nash's V1 that you might be
interested in.
http://www.crosscountryskier.com/tra..._dec_2001.html (It might
be less confusing if you save the picture and edit out the spliced photos in
a photo editor.) He lands his skis well outside of his hips and then shifts
his weight over (note: for V1 up a hill... not V2). Notice how his upper
body moves so that he has weight to push off of. If you don't have your
weight loaded on your pushing foot, you are going to have a weak push.
"skateClimbSlomo" at Janne's site shows an entire pack of skiers doing the
same thing with their V1. I didn't have coaching and my V1 probably looked
similar to yours my first two years. I knew I wasn't skating off correctly
because I wouldn't get the same glide going up hills as the friend that I
always skied behind. On REALLY steep hills with soft sugary slow snow, I
had to "herringbone V1", while my friend was still getting an amazing (to me
at the time) glide. I know you say that you do skiing without poles, but
it's hard for me to see how you can make it up steep hills without poles
without bogging down skiing that way... I sure couldn't. I would try more
no-pole skiing up hills to try to figure out the push and try to visualize
some of the clips... open up the hips some (likegroin stretches), really
blast off each ski at least at first. It finally clicked for me after some
hard no-pole skiing to start, and then I refined it so I don't have to kill
myself to do it... then add poles. For a while, I had to start my first
couple of strides up hills not poling so I would get the right rhythm.
Another thing I did wrong when I was learning was that I was not using my
core muscles (abdominals) at all when skating. Now, I notice that I use my
core muscles even skiing without poles because it is necessary to have the
body tensed to transfer weight properly.

Yes, that's a good point: The pros don't always get their hip over their
ski boot either. And it's true that Marcus Nash seems to be landing his ski
about as far out to the side as mine.

But I'm thinking that's because he's on one of those ridiculously steep
hills at Soldier Hollow in that sequence. I'm not convinced that his boots
would be spread that wide apart if he were climbing up my mere "normally
steep" hill. Unfortunately the resolution in those photos is not fine
enough for me to see if his ski tails are overlapping laterally, or if he's
doing the forward-step move.

Andrew Lee wrote
He lands his skis well outside of his hips
and then shifts his weight over

I agree that something like that is necessary to climb up that
ridiculously-steep Soldier Hollow hill, but I don't see why I would
voluntarily want to introduce extra sideways distance, when I could have
just planted the ski closer underneath me. (and when I look at my
front-view videos, I plainly _could_ had landed my ski closer if I had used
the forward-step move)

Now I'm sounding like Hank Garretson. Because the main benefit in reactive
side-force comes from the quick initiation and stopping of it, not from
adding more distance in the middle.

Ken

P.S. That article (about which Andrew made no claims) around the photos came
across as strange to me: like saying "DO NOT DO TWIST!", and then showing a
photo sequence where Marcus Nash is _plainly_ twisting his upper body (like
any other pro racer). Or when there's no evidence or argument (or even a
claim) that the new techniques will make anybody go _faster_. Instead the
article makes an _esthetic_ claim -- that the new way is more NATURAL, and
the old asymmetric style (used by Daehlie?) looks like "limping". It could
take this "style" thing further -- like skating on wooden skis?

"Ken Roberts" wrote:

But I'm thinking that's because he's on one of those ridiculously steep
hills at Soldier Hollow in that sequence. I'm not convinced that his
boots
would be spread that wide apart if he were climbing up my mere "normally
steep" hill. Unfortunately the resolution in those photos is not fine
enough for me to see if his ski tails are overlapping laterally, or if
he's
doing the forward-step move.

Yeah, he's probably on a steep hill. V1 definitely changes with hill
steepness. I don't think it is quite as steep as the step shown in
"Muhleg1", "Perelof11", "Repo1", etc., but maybe the hill grade that you are
practicing on might be more like "Perclimb" and "BrinkSkateclimb". It's
easy to see that you are "straddling" in your videos, but at a quick glance
it's hard to pick out what to suggest. Hank's suggestion place your glide
ski in closer is good. The width that your skis take up on the trail will
be similar or even wider because you will be pushing your pelvis over to the
other side during the push. On really steep hills, the tempo goes up, the
hips/pelvis shift less (and later?) and the knees need more articulation. I
went back and looked at your side view V1 and finally noticed that you don't
have the "forward-step" move that you are asking about. I don't think "step
forward" when I ski. I just do whatever it takes to get my ski in position
so that I have things aligned (center of mass, center of pressure of kicking
foot) for a good push off immediately. What ends up happening is that the
steeper the hill the bigger the "step". Looking at your front-view V1, I
didn't notice that you weren't doing this, though I noticed that something
was strange with the recovery of the leg from the push. When you practice
your "step forward" move, don't do what I did when I was starting out, which
was just pivoting your leg at the hip joint and placing it forward. You
need to bring your hips/lower torso forward along with your leg... like you
are doing a cross-over crunch. You can really see this in "PerElof5".

P.S. That article (about which Andrew made no claims) around the photos
came
across as strange to me: like saying "DO NOT DO TWIST!", and then showing
a
photo sequence where Marcus Nash is _plainly_ twisting his upper body
(like
any other pro racer). Or when there's no evidence or argument (or even a
claim) that the new techniques will make anybody go _faster_. Instead
the
article makes an _esthetic_ claim -- that the new way is more NATURAL, and
the old asymmetric style (used by Daehlie?) looks like "limping". It
could
take this "style" thing further -- like skating on wooden skis?

Few people seem to define what they mean by "twist". The one that I use is
the one that I read on the old APU website (Galanes). I think he said
something like this: Imagine a plane that contains 4 points - the left and
right hips, and the left and right shoulders. Try to minimize twisting the
points out of plane. By this definition, the most noticable movement of
Marcus Nash's upper body from side to side and compressing is not really
"twisting", just the relative heights of the left and right shoulders that
she compares to Muhlegg. This definition basically encourages you to keep
your core tight, but doesn't restrict the entire core from moving about as
one rigid unit. Basically the "weak side" arm of V1 should not be left too
low and behind, but instead be more like a double pole as much as possible.
This is pretty much what I see in the videos, so that's what I go with.
Anyway, this is another example of what happens when trying to interpret
advice without a live coach. The advice (forward hips, etc.) is usually
mean to direct someone from their current form based on what they see,
towards what is ideal, not necessarily meant to be taken to an extreme. I'm
still not sure what they mean by "twist" in "New skate" discussions.