another way to train for skating on a bicycle?

I was doing a long hill-climb workout on my bicycle, got bored somewhere in
the second hour, stood to get thru a steeper section -- and found myself
using different muscles to help: my Hip Abductor muscles pushing out to the
side.

I usually think of "hip abduction" as a skating move: "sweeping" my foot out
sideways from underneath -- a way to start pushing while my ski is still
close underneath my hip, instead of waiting for the ski to far enough out to
the side for the "piston" leg-extension kind of push to be effective for
propulsion. See
http://roberts-1.com/skate/go/muscle...abduction_move
for links to some short video clips of what the "hip abduction" move looks
like.

How could a sideways leg move possibly be effective for propulsion on a
bicycle? That's what caught me by surprise. Never even occurred to my
conscious rational mind to even consider it. But sometimes my brain's
unconscious muscle control centers are smarter about this sort of thing.

My rational interpretation afterwards is that if I use my arms to swing the
bike from side-to-side while I'm standing, then the obvious "downward"
pushing direction of the pedal-mechanism becomes partway sideways. So if my
hip joint does not move as far sideways as the bicycle, then the obvious
pedal-mechanism pushing-direction is partly sideways from my hip -- so I can
use my hip-abductors to push on the pedal effectively. And indeed pretty
soon those side-push muscles did start feeling tired. (Not sure if this
works on unsophisticated pedals without clip-mechanisms or straps)

I say "another way to train", since earlier I had noticed using
bicycle-pedaling to train specific muscles for the "forward knee drive" or
"forward ankle flexion" (or dorsi-flexion) position which has been popular
in the last couple of years with some American coaches. Also for training
"hip flexion" muscles for leg-recovery and to drive the ski forward in
classic striding. I found this season that doing lots of intense standing
pedaling on the bicycle was good training for super-steep classic climbing
in the backcountry.

Next thing I might play with is trying to move and/or aim my knee out to the
side while standing with side-swing, and see if I might be able to engage
other skating sideways-leg-push muscles lower down in my leg.

Ken

P.S. Using a sideways leg-push likely violates some principle of proper
bicycling technique, so I'm only suggesting it as a special means of summer
training for skating, not for bicycling in itself.

Ken,

My English doesn't make it easy for me to immediately understand the below
fully, but I may have something to add.

Some years ago on a bike exhibition I came across a maker of 3D pedals. The
pedal platform or retention system sat in a curved sleeve in the splindle,
causing the foot to move outward during the downstroke. The idea was exacty
to make use of the hip muscles. Supposedly Olympic Champion Bart Brentjens
had been tested with them, and put out 10 or 12% more power with the pedals.
Of course in his sport, pedal clearance to the ground is an issue, and
cardio capacity all-deciding.
I sat on the trainer bike with the pedal for a couple minutes, and lo and
behold, my hit got soar really quickly. With the pedal moving outward only
just an inch, I could not help but use those (totally untrained) muscles.
Now that I'm tking up ski skating, and reading your post, I can totally see
such pedals making sence for skiers while cross-training on the bike.
Perhaps you can find these pedals somewhere still, or again. It's been over
5 years, but such systems come and go.

I'll do some googles on it in my language, it was a Dutch company marketing
them I think. One of those enthousiastic exhibitors everyone laughs about
afterwards. He may have made better business on a ski or skating show...

Jan Gerrit

"Ken Roberts" schreef in bericht
...
I was doing a long hill-climb workout on my bicycle, got bored somewhere
in
the second hour, stood to get thru a steeper section -- and found myself
using different muscles to help: my Hip Abductor muscles pushing out to
the
side.

I usually think of "hip abduction" as a skating move: "sweeping" my foot
out
sideways from underneath -- a way to start pushing while my ski is still
close underneath my hip, instead of waiting for the ski to far enough out
to
the side for the "piston" leg-extension kind of push to be effective for
propulsion. See
http://roberts-1.com/skate/go/muscle...abduction_move
for links to some short video clips of what the "hip abduction" move looks
like.

How could a sideways leg move possibly be effective for propulsion on a
bicycle? That's what caught me by surprise. Never even occurred to my
conscious rational mind to even consider it. But sometimes my brain's
unconscious muscle control centers are smarter about this sort of thing.

My rational interpretation afterwards is that if I use my arms to swing
the
bike from side-to-side while I'm standing, then the obvious "downward"
pushing direction of the pedal-mechanism becomes partway sideways. So if
my
hip joint does not move as far sideways as the bicycle, then the obvious
pedal-mechanism pushing-direction is partly sideways from my hip -- so I
can
use my hip-abductors to push on the pedal effectively. And indeed pretty
soon those side-push muscles did start feeling tired. (Not sure if this
works on unsophisticated pedals without clip-mechanisms or straps)

I say "another way to train", since earlier I had noticed using
bicycle-pedaling to train specific muscles for the "forward knee drive" or
"forward ankle flexion" (or dorsi-flexion) position which has been popular
in the last couple of years with some American coaches. Also for training
"hip flexion" muscles for leg-recovery and to drive the ski forward in
classic striding. I found this season that doing lots of intense standing
pedaling on the bicycle was good training for super-steep classic climbing
in the backcountry.

Next thing I might play with is trying to move and/or aim my knee out to
the
side while standing with side-swing, and see if I might be able to engage
other skating sideways-leg-push muscles lower down in my leg.

Ken

P.S. Using a sideways leg-push likely violates some principle of proper
bicycling technique, so I'm only suggesting it as a special means of
summer
training for skating, not for bicycling in itself.

I'd be interested to find out who made those pedals -- might even consider
buying a pair. If you can find a lead on a Dutch manufacturer or
distributor, that would be great.

Jan Gerrit wrote
Olympic Champion Bart Brentjens had been tested with them,
and put out 10 or 12% more power with the pedals. Of course
in his sport, pedal clearance to the ground is an issue, and cardio
capacity all-deciding.

But since I have not pushed my training to anywhere near Olympic levels,
_my_ current cardio-vascular capacity is not anywhere its possible maximum,
so my bicycling speed could benefit from a mechanical trick to engage new
muscles (and train them for skating at the same time). And since I ride on
roads and I'm not a racer, I don't have to worry about clearance for
pedaling thru curves.

I sat on the trainer bike with the pedal for a couple minutes, and lo
and behold, my hip got sore really quickly.

While my web searching did not find the pedal manufacturer or distributor, I
did find an article by a bicycle coach saying that lots of bicycle racers
have weak hip abductors, and claimed it can cause control problems for their
bicycling pedal-stroke.

I also found research using 3-dimensional motion bicycle pedals to
rehabilitate (or prevent) injuries.

Ken



With the pedal moving outward only
just an inch, I could not help but use those (totally untrained) muscles.
Now that I'm tking up ski skating, and reading your post, I can totally
see
such pedals making sence for skiers while cross-training on the bike.
Perhaps you can find these pedals somewhere still, or again. It's been
over
5 years, but such systems come and go.

I'll do some googles on it in my language, it was a Dutch company
marketing
them I think. One of those enthousiastic exhibitors everyone laughs about
afterwards. He may have made better business on a ski or skating show...

Jan Gerrit

"Ken Roberts" schreef in bericht
...
I was doing a long hill-climb workout on my bicycle, got bored somewhere
in
the second hour, stood to get thru a steeper section -- and found myself
using different muscles to help: my Hip Abductor muscles pushing out to
the
side.

I usually think of "hip abduction" as a skating move: "sweeping" my foot
out
sideways from underneath -- a way to start pushing while my ski is still
close underneath my hip, instead of waiting for the ski to far enough out
to
the side for the "piston" leg-extension kind of push to be effective for
propulsion. See
http://roberts-1.com/skate/go/muscle...abduction_move
for links to some short video clips of what the "hip abduction" move
looks
like.

How could a sideways leg move possibly be effective for propulsion on a
bicycle? That's what caught me by surprise. Never even occurred to my
conscious rational mind to even consider it. But sometimes my brain's
unconscious muscle control centers are smarter about this sort of thing.

My rational interpretation afterwards is that if I use my arms to swing
the
bike from side-to-side while I'm standing, then the obvious "downward"
pushing direction of the pedal-mechanism becomes partway sideways. So if
my
hip joint does not move as far sideways as the bicycle, then the obvious
pedal-mechanism pushing-direction is partly sideways from my hip -- so I
can
use my hip-abductors to push on the pedal effectively. And indeed pretty
soon those side-push muscles did start feeling tired. (Not sure if this
works on unsophisticated pedals without clip-mechanisms or straps)

I say "another way to train", since earlier I had noticed using
bicycle-pedaling to train specific muscles for the "forward knee drive"
or
"forward ankle flexion" (or dorsi-flexion) position which has been
popular
in the last couple of years with some American coaches. Also for training
"hip flexion" muscles for leg-recovery and to drive the ski forward in
classic striding. I found this season that doing lots of intense standing
pedaling on the bicycle was good training for super-steep classic
climbing
in the backcountry.

Next thing I might play with is trying to move and/or aim my knee out to
the
side while standing with side-swing, and see if I might be able to engage
other skating sideways-leg-push muscles lower down in my leg.

Ken

P.S. Using a sideways leg-push likely violates some principle of proper
bicycling technique, so I'm only suggesting it as a special means of
summer
training for skating, not for bicycling in itself.

Ken Roberts wrote:
I'd be interested to find out who made those pedals -- might even consider
buying a pair. If you can find a lead on a Dutch manufacturer or
distributor, that would be great.

Jan Gerrit wrote
Olympic Champion Bart Brentjens had been tested with them,
and put out 10 or 12% more power with the pedals. Of course
in his sport, pedal clearance to the ground is an issue, and cardio
capacity all-deciding.

But since I have not pushed my training to anywhere near Olympic levels,
_my_ current cardio-vascular capacity is not anywhere its possible maximum,
so my bicycling speed could benefit from a mechanical trick to engage new
muscles (and train them for skating at the same time). And since I ride on
roads and I'm not a racer, I don't have to worry about clearance for
pedaling thru curves.

I sat on the trainer bike with the pedal for a couple minutes, and lo
and behold, my hip got sore really quickly.

While my web searching did not find the pedal manufacturer or distributor, I
did find an article by a bicycle coach saying that lots of bicycle racers
have weak hip abductors, and claimed it can cause control problems for their
bicycling pedal-stroke.

I know that from my firts real season of XC skiing that my abductor
muscles developed in a drastic way. They may have been under developed
from so much cycling, but they sure decided to pump up from skiing.
Particualrly my Tensor Fasciae Latae:

http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/TensorFasciaeLatae.html

One way to involve that muscle more while cyciling may be to use a
fixed gear bike. That muscle is used while slowing down. Perhaps
accelerating and slowing down repeatedly would be a good exercise?

Joseph


I also found research using 3-dimensional motion bicycle pedals to
rehabilitate (or prevent) injuries.

Ken



With the pedal moving outward only
just an inch, I could not help but use those (totally untrained) muscles.
Now that I'm tking up ski skating, and reading your post, I can totally
see
such pedals making sence for skiers while cross-training on the bike.
Perhaps you can find these pedals somewhere still, or again. It's been
over
5 years, but such systems come and go.

I'll do some googles on it in my language, it was a Dutch company
marketing
them I think. One of those enthousiastic exhibitors everyone laughs about
afterwards. He may have made better business on a ski or skating show...

Jan Gerrit

"Ken Roberts" schreef in bericht
...
I was doing a long hill-climb workout on my bicycle, got bored somewhere
in
the second hour, stood to get thru a steeper section -- and found myself
using different muscles to help: my Hip Abductor muscles pushing out to
the
side.

I usually think of "hip abduction" as a skating move: "sweeping" my foot
out
sideways from underneath -- a way to start pushing while my ski is still
close underneath my hip, instead of waiting for the ski to far enough out
to
the side for the "piston" leg-extension kind of push to be effective for
propulsion. See
http://roberts-1.com/skate/go/muscle...abduction_move
for links to some short video clips of what the "hip abduction" move
looks
like.

How could a sideways leg move possibly be effective for propulsion on a
bicycle? That's what caught me by surprise. Never even occurred to my
conscious rational mind to even consider it. But sometimes my brain's
unconscious muscle control centers are smarter about this sort of thing.

My rational interpretation afterwards is that if I use my arms to swing
the
bike from side-to-side while I'm standing, then the obvious "downward"
pushing direction of the pedal-mechanism becomes partway sideways. So if
my
hip joint does not move as far sideways as the bicycle, then the obvious
pedal-mechanism pushing-direction is partly sideways from my hip -- so I
can
use my hip-abductors to push on the pedal effectively. And indeed pretty
soon those side-push muscles did start feeling tired. (Not sure if this
works on unsophisticated pedals without clip-mechanisms or straps)

I say "another way to train", since earlier I had noticed using
bicycle-pedaling to train specific muscles for the "forward knee drive"
or
"forward ankle flexion" (or dorsi-flexion) position which has been
popular
in the last couple of years with some American coaches. Also for training
"hip flexion" muscles for leg-recovery and to drive the ski forward in
classic striding. I found this season that doing lots of intense standing
pedaling on the bicycle was good training for super-steep classic
climbing
in the backcountry.

Next thing I might play with is trying to move and/or aim my knee out to
the
side while standing with side-swing, and see if I might be able to engage
other skating sideways-leg-push muscles lower down in my leg.

Ken

P.S. Using a sideways leg-push likely violates some principle of proper
bicycling technique, so I'm only suggesting it as a special means of
summer
training for skating, not for bicycling in itself.

Unfortunately I only located one mention of them, on a triathlon list, dated
2002. No real content.
I think the brand name was 3DPedal or something. Obviously doesn't exist
anymore.

"Ken Roberts" schreef in bericht
...
I'd be interested to find out who made those pedals -- might even consider
buying a pair. If you can find a lead on a Dutch manufacturer or
distributor, that would be great.

Jan Gerrit wrote
Olympic Champion Bart Brentjens had been tested with them,
and put out 10 or 12% more power with the pedals. Of course
in his sport, pedal clearance to the ground is an issue, and cardio
capacity all-deciding.

But since I have not pushed my training to anywhere near Olympic levels,
_my_ current cardio-vascular capacity is not anywhere its possible
maximum,
so my bicycling speed could benefit from a mechanical trick to engage new
muscles (and train them for skating at the same time). And since I ride on
roads and I'm not a racer, I don't have to worry about clearance for
pedaling thru curves.

I sat on the trainer bike with the pedal for a couple minutes, and lo
and behold, my hip got sore really quickly.

While my web searching did not find the pedal manufacturer or distributor,
I
did find an article by a bicycle coach saying that lots of bicycle racers
have weak hip abductors, and claimed it can cause control problems for
their
bicycling pedal-stroke.

I also found research using 3-dimensional motion bicycle pedals to
rehabilitate (or prevent) injuries.

Ken



With the pedal moving outward only
just an inch, I could not help but use those (totally untrained)
muscles.
Now that I'm tking up ski skating, and reading your post, I can totally
see
such pedals making sence for skiers while cross-training on the bike.
Perhaps you can find these pedals somewhere still, or again. It's been
over
5 years, but such systems come and go.

I'll do some googles on it in my language, it was a Dutch company
marketing
them I think. One of those enthousiastic exhibitors everyone laughs
about
afterwards. He may have made better business on a ski or skating show...

Jan Gerrit

"Ken Roberts" schreef in bericht
...
I was doing a long hill-climb workout on my bicycle, got bored
somewhere
in
the second hour, stood to get thru a steeper section -- and found
myself
using different muscles to help: my Hip Abductor muscles pushing out
to
the
side.

I usually think of "hip abduction" as a skating move: "sweeping" my
foot
out
sideways from underneath -- a way to start pushing while my ski is
still
close underneath my hip, instead of waiting for the ski to far enough
out
to
the side for the "piston" leg-extension kind of push to be effective
for
propulsion. See
http://roberts-1.com/skate/go/muscle...abduction_move
for links to some short video clips of what the "hip abduction" move
looks
like.

How could a sideways leg move possibly be effective for propulsion on a
bicycle? That's what caught me by surprise. Never even occurred to my
conscious rational mind to even consider it. But sometimes my brain's
unconscious muscle control centers are smarter about this sort of
thing.

My rational interpretation afterwards is that if I use my arms to swing
the
bike from side-to-side while I'm standing, then the obvious "downward"
pushing direction of the pedal-mechanism becomes partway sideways. So
if
my
hip joint does not move as far sideways as the bicycle, then the
obvious
pedal-mechanism pushing-direction is partly sideways from my hip -- so
I
can
use my hip-abductors to push on the pedal effectively. And indeed
pretty
soon those side-push muscles did start feeling tired. (Not sure if this
works on unsophisticated pedals without clip-mechanisms or straps)

I say "another way to train", since earlier I had noticed using
bicycle-pedaling to train specific muscles for the "forward knee drive"
or
"forward ankle flexion" (or dorsi-flexion) position which has been
popular
in the last couple of years with some American coaches. Also for
training
"hip flexion" muscles for leg-recovery and to drive the ski forward in
classic striding. I found this season that doing lots of intense
standing
pedaling on the bicycle was good training for super-steep classic
climbing
in the backcountry.

Next thing I might play with is trying to move and/or aim my knee out
to
the
side while standing with side-swing, and see if I might be able to
engage
other skating sideways-leg-push muscles lower down in my leg.

Ken

P.S. Using a sideways leg-push likely violates some principle of proper
bicycling technique, so I'm only suggesting it as a special means of
summer
training for skating, not for bicycling in itself.

Jan Gerrit Klok wrote:
Unfortunately I only located one mention of them, on a triathlon list, dated
2002. No real content.
I think the brand name was 3DPedal or something. Obviously doesn't exist
anymore.

Post to rec.bicycles.tech and see if anyone knows anything about them.
Those guys seem to know everything.

Joseph

Joseph wrote
my Tensor Fasciae Latae . . . One way to involve that
muscle more while cyciling may be to use a fixed gear bike.

Sounds like that's an idea for you to test, not me. I'm doubtful that I can
(or should try to) control specific anatomical muscles. Usually I try to
think more of larger muscular "moves" or "functions", like
* pushing my leg out to the side from underneath.
* extending the leg on the line roughly from the hip thru the ankle, like a
piston.
I would leave the details of which anatomical muscles and their timing
coordination to my unconscious neuro-muscular control center. My guess is
that trying to consciously perceive or control some individual anatomical
muscle is very subject to perceptual illusions (unless using some very
specially designed biofeedback device).

www.exrx.net talks about "articulations". I notice that the "Tensor Fasciae
Latae" muscle is involved with three other "articulations" than the one I
mentioned of "hip abduction". And www.exrx.net says that hip abduction
engages several other anatomical muscles that the "Tensor Fasciae Latae".

What www.exrx.net calls "articulations", I think of as "sub-moves" or
sub-functions. Like the function of "pushing my leg out to the side from
underneath" can use at least three different "articulations" (hip abduction,
medial hip rotation, ankle pronation). Each of those three uses multiple
anatomical muscles -- so that's a lot of muscles to keep track of -- and
that's only one move out of several that are included in the skating
leg-push. If someone told me there were 50 different anatomical mucles
engaged in an expert racer's skating leg-push, I'd believe them.

So while sometimes I will give attention to a specific "articulation" in my
leg-push -- usually because I suspect that I've been getting lazy about
using it -- but it's hard for me to imagine why I'd try to get down to the
level of one muscle out of 40 or 50 (just for the legs).

Ken

I don't think you really use the hip abductors as much as you might
think while skating. The real push is down. The weight shift make it
seem like the abductors do a lot, but I doubt that.

Lee Borowski did some motion analysis of cycling a few years ago and
claims that the pedaling motion is very close to the skate motion, but
only while standing. Sten Fjeldheim of Northern Michigan U, who
usually loves to disagree with Borowski, apparently agrees, because
he's had his team do 100 mile training rides. . . after removing all of
the seats!

Randy

I'm not saying that the hip abduction sub-move or "articulation" can or
should contribute a large percentage of anybody's skating power.

I do think that the larger move of "sweeping" the leg toward the outside
from underneath can contribute 15-30% of the power of the _leg_ push of
skating. That move includes more than just the hip abduction articulation.
It also can (and should) include the articulations or sub-moves of ankle
pronation and medial hip rotation.

The real push is down.

I agree that the obvious piston-like extension of the leg (roughly along the
axis from hip to ankle) contributes more than 50% of the power of the
skating leg-push.

But if "sweep the leg outward from underneath" is not an important muscular
component of skating propulsion, then . . .

* how come World Cup winners usually set down their ski close underneath the
hip, even though the obvious piston-like "real" push "down" has no vector
component for forward propulsion in that configuration? (but starting
underneath hip is excellent for getting a forward-propulsion vector
component from the "sweep out toward the side" push)

* how come World Cup winners pronate their ankle during the skate leg-push?
(even though that articulation slightly _reduces_ the length of their
leg-extension "real" push?)

* why do so many ice speedskaters develop such _wide_ legs, compared with
bicyclists -- if really they're just pushing like bicyclists?

Sten Fjeldheim . . . had his team do 100 mile training rides
. . . after removing all of the seats

I think standing on a bicycle is great training for lots of kinds of skiing
and skating.

Standing is the only way I know to train hip abductors on a bicycle (that
doesn't have special 3D pedals). So if anything this story about Sten
Fjeldheim supports the value of hip abductors for ski-skating.

Ken

Ken Roberts wrote:
Joseph wrote
my Tensor Fasciae Latae . . . One way to involve that
muscle more while cyciling may be to use a fixed gear bike.

Sounds like that's an idea for you to test, not me. I'm doubtful that I can
(or should try to) control specific anatomical muscles. Usually I try to
think more of larger muscular "moves" or "functions", like
* pushing my leg out to the side from underneath.
* extending the leg on the line roughly from the hip thru the ankle, like a
piston.
I would leave the details of which anatomical muscles and their timing
coordination to my unconscious neuro-muscular control center. My guess is
that trying to consciously perceive or control some individual anatomical
muscle is very subject to perceptual illusions (unless using some very
specially designed biofeedback device).

www.exrx.net talks about "articulations". I notice that the "Tensor Fasciae
Latae" muscle is involved with three other "articulations" than the one I
mentioned of "hip abduction". And www.exrx.net says that hip abduction
engages several other anatomical muscles that the "Tensor Fasciae Latae".

What www.exrx.net calls "articulations", I think of as "sub-moves" or
sub-functions. Like the function of "pushing my leg out to the side from
underneath" can use at least three different "articulations" (hip abduction,
medial hip rotation, ankle pronation). Each of those three uses multiple
anatomical muscles -- so that's a lot of muscles to keep track of -- and
that's only one move out of several that are included in the skating
leg-push. If someone told me there were 50 different anatomical mucles
engaged in an expert racer's skating leg-push, I'd believe them.

So while sometimes I will give attention to a specific "articulation" in my
leg-push -- usually because I suspect that I've been getting lazy about
using it -- but it's hard for me to imagine why I'd try to get down to the
level of one muscle out of 40 or 50 (just for the legs).

Ken

I didn't mean to imply that I was on purpose training any particular
muscle in isolation. I more or less just noticed that I developed
bulging hip muscles after one season of hard skiing (50/50
skate/classic) that were not present earlier despite lots of cycling.
The fact that these muscles developed so dramatically from skiing
indicates their importance to skiing. At least with my "technique"! It
has been many years since I have ridden a fixed gear bike, but back
when I did, I recall having similar development, though not as bulky.

This muscle in particualr may not be that important for
skate-propulsion, but it certainly is used to pick the leg up and place
it again.

My huge weight gain from skiing resulted in lots of muscle development
I have not had before. Triceps, lats, hamstrings, and this particular
hip muscle being the most noticable. Quads not so much, but I attribute
this to them being overly developed from cycling. Anyting that get
developed from skiing is important to sking, obviously.

Joseph