Doping Dopes?

I haven't seen much coverage of this on skiing sites yet, but this
depressing news comes from the New York Times
(http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/20/sp...=1&oref=slogin).
(You have to figure that Hoffmann was prepping for a big day in the
50km race next weekend):

After their raid on Olympic athletes suspected of doping, the Italian
police said Sunday that they were testing items seized from the rooms
of Austrian Nordic skiers, including syringes, glucose drips and what
were described as unprescribed medicine.

The Italian police said that some of the seized material, including
syringes and other used medical gear, was found in a bag that had been
thrown out of a window during the raid. They said that test results on
the equipment and on 10 Austrian athletes will not be known until
Monday, at the earliest.

The 10 skiers angrily declared their innocence, although at least two
Austrian skiers had left Italy just before the raid.

Two athletes sought by the I.O.C. testers - the cross-country skiers
Mikhail Botwinov and Christian Hoffmann - were not at the houses, and
I.O.C. officials said that they had left the country before the raid.
Two biathletes who were tested, Wolfgang Perner and Wolfgang Rottmann,
have since left the country, and Austrian officials said they had been
thrown off the team for leaving.

The Austrians have only themselves to blame. One wonders what is going
on in their federation to have allowed Walter Mayer to lurk in the
shadows. You would think that they would have broken connections with
him after 2002, but I found this article from 2004 -
http://www.fasterskier.com/news1198.html. I think the Austrian athletes
should reserve their anger for their own federation, not the
carabinieri. After all that has happened they should be sensitive even
to the appearance of impropriety. Other than athletes with a specific
medical condition like diabetes, why would they need to have syringes
in their quarters?

Chris

On 19 Feb 2006 20:20:17 -0800, "tassava"
wrote:

I haven't seen much coverage of this on skiing sites yet, but this
depressing news comes from the New York Times
(http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/20/sp...=1&oref=slogin).
(You have to figure that Hoffmann was prepping for a big day in the
50km race next weekend):

After their raid on Olympic athletes suspected of doping, the Italian
police said Sunday that they were testing items seized from the rooms
of Austrian Nordic skiers, including syringes, glucose drips and what
were described as unprescribed medicine.

Is glucose illegal? Are syringes illegal?

JFT

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yeah, like I always take my glucose with syringes

On 20 Feb 2006 21:07:29 -0800, "cpella" wrote:

yeah, like I always take my glucose with syringes

I had a friend in another endurance sport who was on a national team
and worlds team who I don't think ever doped who said saline IV drips
can be really important when athletes are dehydrated from weather or
illness. I know of people who have been sick who have had glucose IV
drips.

So is glucose illegal? Are syringes illegal? Is using these things
agains the rules of the sport? Is the only use of a syringe for a drug
that's against the rules?

JFT

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I suppose that's why they were throwing them out the window. The point
is that the circumstantial evidence was enough to warrant an
investigation. End of story.

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On 20 Feb 2006 21:07:29 -0800, "cpella" wrote:


yeah, like I always take my glucose with syringes


I had a friend in another endurance sport who was on a national team
and worlds team who I don't think ever doped who said saline IV drips
can be really important when athletes are dehydrated from weather or
illness. I know of people who have been sick who have had glucose IV
drips.

I routinely start IV infusions of saline or dextrose in sick people...
in hospital. There is no reason why an athlete should ever need an IV
infusion in their room. If you're dehydrated, and not vomiting non-stop,
that's what your mouth is for.


So is glucose illegal? Are syringes illegal? Is using these things
agains the rules of the sport? Is the only use of a syringe for a drug
that's against the rules?

Unless they happened to be insulin syringes, what are the odds they were
for anything other than illegal doping? If there was an innocent
explanation, why toss the gear out the window?

I have a very nice, sharp set of kitchen knives. I've never used them to
hurt anyone. However, if my neighbour was stabbed to death and the
police found me tossing a blood-stained carving knife into my rubbish
bin when they came to ask me if I'd seen anything.... should they
presume I was carving up raw meat and suddenly decided to toss out my knife?

Chris

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 09:37:51 +1000, Chris Cole
wrote:


I routinely start IV infusions of saline or dextrose in sick people...
in hospital. There is no reason why an athlete should ever need an IV
infusion in their room. If you're dehydrated, and not vomiting non-stop,
that's what your mouth is for.

What about severe diarrhea and a race later that day?

JT



So is glucose illegal? Are syringes illegal? Is using these things
agains the rules of the sport? Is the only use of a syringe for a drug
that's against the rules?

Unless they happened to be insulin syringes, what are the odds they were
for anything other than illegal doping? If there was an innocent
explanation, why toss the gear out the window?

Since at least two people in this thread seem to think that things
that are not illegal per se are sufficient to cause an investigation,
the reaction of throwing thigns away seems quite logical to me.

The fight against doping isn't going to work if the legal and illegal
are confused in people's minds.

JFT

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Cool. You've hit on a new approach to enforcement. Instead of going out
and doing investigations and being pro-active - because there's all
that work involved - the agencies can sit in an office and wait for the
miscreants to come down and give themselves up. Wow! I wonder why WADA
didn't think of that. And if somebody at the electrical utility notices
that a certain residence has started using electricity at 5 times the
normal rate, they should just ignore it, because after all, electricity
is perfectly legal to use... they couldn't possibly be doing something
suspicious like growing pot.

On 22 Feb 2006 07:25:08 -0800, "cpella" wrote:

Cool. You've hit on a new approach to enforcement. Instead of going out
and doing investigations and being pro-active - because there's all
that work involved - the agencies can sit in an office and wait for the
miscreants to come down and give themselves up. Wow! I wonder why WADA
didn't think of that. And if somebody at the electrical utility notices
that a certain residence has started using electricity at 5 times the
normal rate, they should just ignore it, because after all, electricity
is perfectly legal to use... they couldn't possibly be doing something
suspicious like growing pot.

Since you put words into my mouth -- suggesting I only want police to
sit in their office -- I'll put words in yours: If someone uses
syringes or glucose the police should take them in for questioning.

Brilliant.

electricity at 5 times the
normal rate, they should just ignore it,
because after all, electricity
is perfectly legal to use... they
couldn't possibly be doing something
suspicious like growing pot.

Please don't set up straw men like "couldn't possibly." I haven't
said the Austrians "couldn't possibly" be doping, have I? I've simply
asked if glucose or syringes are illegal. Are they?

In the electricity situtation you mention above, the police can watch
the house or see if there are any other things that indicate drug
production. Sure, it's *possible* pot is being grown. But I would
strongly object to someone being taken to a policy station, without
access to a lawyer, for simply using more electricity than normal. I
personally don't want to live in a society where simple suspicions
like that results in being taken out of a home or out of a hotel room
by the police. That's pretty scary.

In the case of the Austrian ski team, the coach is banned from working
at the Olympics. OK -- so grab him. Syringes raise suspicions. OK --
so watch the athletes and see if they actually do anything illegal.
Check their drug tests carefully. But don't report those things
*after* the athletes are detained as if they demonstrate illegal
activity or doping activity. Unless syringes and glucose are against
the law or against the rules of sport. Are they?

JFT

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