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pole length



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 16th 04, 04:58 AM
steve steve is offline
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First recorded activity by SkiBanter: Dec 2004
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 31
Default pole length

So what is the general consensus out there on pole length for skating??

I went out last weekend for a skate and just for fun used my classic poles and, I must say, it really has me questioning whether I've been using poles that are too long for the past 2 years.

My V2 was much more balanced, controlled, rythmic - very seldom did I experience one of those abberrations of falling to the outside or missing my timing, etc. I seemed to be utilizing much more of my core in the early pole phase (as opposed to lats,shoulders) and there wasn't the same pressure to rush to get up 'on top' of my poles. Felt very smooth and natural even if I did sacrafice some poling power on the flats/light downhills.

My current skate poles are at what is suggested for my height - 160cms, I'm 5,11' . Standing on my ski boots the poles go to my nose . I went with the long end of the range thinking that I would be able to
take advantage of my relatively strong upper body and arms (my lower body is weaker).

Now I'm wondering whether i should go with something slightly below my chin ???? I wouldn't go down as short as my classic length, but I'm starting to think maybe my body type (arm length, etc.) may be better suited to a slightly shorter pole. Also I ski in hilly terrain for the most part (Gatineau park) , possibly another argument for a slightly shorter pole.


Any thoughts ??

steve
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  #2  
Old December 16th 04, 01:22 PM
Rob Bradlee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Toko recommended length is .885 times your height. That would be 160
CM for you.

This is just a recommended starting point - you can vary according to
personal preference. As you found out, shorter poles make V2 easier.

Rob Bradlee
Toko Tech Team

--- steve wrote:


So what is the general consensus out there on pole length for
skating??

I went out last weekend for a skate and just for fun used my classic
poles and, I must say, it really has me questioning whether I've been
using poles that are too long for the past 2 years.

My V2 was much more balanced, controlled, rythmic - very seldom did I
experience one of those abberrations of falling to the outside or
missing my timing, etc. I seemed to be utilizing much more of my core
in the early pole phase (as opposed to lats,shoulders) and there
wasn't
the same pressure to rush to get up 'on top' of my poles. Felt very
smooth and natural even if I did sacrafice some poling power on the
flats/light downhills.

My current skate poles are at what is suggested for my height -
160cms,
I'm 5,11' . Standing on my ski boots the poles go to my nose . I went
with the long end of the range thinking that I would be able to
take advantage of my relatively strong upper body and arms (my lower
body is weaker).

Now I'm wondering whether i should go with something slightly below
my
chin ???? I wouldn't go down as short as my classic length, but I'm
starting to think maybe my body type (arm length, etc.) may be better
suited to a slightly shorter pole. Also I ski in hilly terrain for
the
most part (Gatineau park) , possibly another argument for a slightly
shorter pole.


Any thoughts ??

steve


--
steve







=====
Rob Bradlee
Java, C++, Perl, XML, OOAD, Linux, and Unix Training




  #3  
Old December 16th 04, 02:50 PM
cpella
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Posts: n/a
Default

I'm also wondering about this - and coincidentally Gatineau is my home
turf. My
skate pole length is just above chin level but I was thinking of
getting another longer pair for flatter terrain. Perhaps my thinking
originally was that shorter would help with the terrain in the park,
and also stop me from leaning too much on my poles. I'm also stronger
in the upper body from kayaking so I tend to depend too much on that to
the detriment of leg strength and balance.
My classic poles are also a bit shorter than they used to be and I
think it is helping my technique on the hills.

Chris

steve wrote:
So what is the general consensus out there on pole length for

skating??

I went out last weekend for a skate and just for fun used my classic
poles and, I must say, it really has me questioning whether I've been
using poles that are too long for the past 2 years.

My V2 was much more balanced, controlled, rythmic - very seldom did I
experience one of those abberrations of falling to the outside or
missing my timing, etc. I seemed to be utilizing much more of my core
in the early pole phase (as opposed to lats,shoulders) and there

wasn't
the same pressure to rush to get up 'on top' of my poles. Felt very
smooth and natural even if I did sacrafice some poling power on the
flats/light downhills.

My current skate poles are at what is suggested for my height -

160cms,
I'm 5,11' . Standing on my ski boots the poles go to my nose . I went
with the long end of the range thinking that I would be able to
take advantage of my relatively strong upper body and arms (my lower
body is weaker).

Now I'm wondering whether i should go with something slightly below

my
chin ???? I wouldn't go down as short as my classic length, but I'm
starting to think maybe my body type (arm length, etc.) may be better
suited to a slightly shorter pole. Also I ski in hilly terrain for

the
most part (Gatineau park) , possibly another argument for a slightly
shorter pole.


Any thoughts ??

steve


--
steve


  #4  
Old December 17th 04, 02:20 AM
Gene Goldenfeld
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Posts: n/a
Default

steve wrote:
So what is the general consensus out there on pole length for skating??


The .885 figure Rob suggests for skating poles comes from the Toko pole
assembly pdf and is preceded by the statement that generally the top of
the grip on skating poles from run anywhere from chin to lip (*in
boots*), with personal preference determining. I've noticed a lot of
the high end shops strongly suggest going closer to lip than chin. I
have two pairs, one by chance at .885 (168.5) and the other at 170+; on
snow I feel stronger with the longer ones, but often prefer the shorter
ones on rollerskis where the terrain is gradually uphill and I'm doing
extended V2 intervals. I don't usually get going that fast doing a
controlled V2 on skis. In any event, it's safer to start longer and see
how it feels, because they can be cut down later.

The new Ski Post came with the following enlightening exchange on this
subject:

Dear Ski Post,

There seem to be even more tables, formulas and eyeball methods for
deciding classical and skate pole length than there are pole choices out
there, with the results varying by as much as 3-5 cm. I'd like to put
those methods aside for a moment and approach it from a different angle
-- feel. What do your racers look for in judging whether a pole feels
the right length, as opposed to too long or short? Do your coaches have
things they look for in evaluating whether a skier's pole length is
correct?

Thanks,
RG
Minnesota


Hi Roger,
That is a great question you've posed. One beautiful, challenging, and
sometimes frustrating thing about skiing is that technique is incredibly
complex. This makes it difficult to process all of the different factors
that contribute to efficient skiing and sometimes you are better off
making decisions based on the results rather than overanalyzing the
means that get you there.

For me, the ultimate method to "feel" if a pole is the right length is
the ability to "get on top of it". This highly technical term, "get on
top of it", is the best way I can describe how to be efficient and
powerful with poles. It means being far enough forward to push on your
poles not only with your arms, but also with the weight of your body and
the power of your core. If your poles are too long, it becomes more
difficult to position yourself correctly to "get on top of them", and if
they are too short, you will feel that you don't have to move very far
to get over the poles and that when you do, there just isn't the power
that you expect.

Pole length also has a huge effect on timing. Too long, and you will
get a hitch in your step as you pause to plant the pole and also as your
body must take additional time to get into a position where you can
actually push on the pole. If the poles are too short, timing is not
affected as much, but it will feel like your poling is ahead of the rest
of the stroke, while with longer poles you will feel like your arms are
behind and everything else is waiting on them.

In my experience coaching hundreds of people with pole lengths all over
the place, I often see what I think is a pole-length issue that turns
out to be incorrect body position and/or timing. It is easy to pick out
the difference with slow-motion video. But make sure that you are in the
correct body position before you chop down those poles!

Good Luck,
Nathan Schultz
Subaru Factory Team Academies and Coaching
www.nsavage.com
  #5  
Old December 21st 04, 06:01 PM
Mark Waechter Mark Waechter is offline
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First recorded activity by SkiBanter: Dec 2004
Posts: 10
Default

My first comment is that the Toko guideline is a good starting point. Also, I'll note that different people skate differently, and this will result in some personal preference variation of a couple cm's.

Having said that... ... the Toko guidelines are based on total height, and many others base their recommendation on wearing boots (or not) while standing on a floor. However these have some obvious problems. You don't push your poles with your head and neck! There are variations of a few cm in neck length - you pole with your arms, shoulders, and everything below that. So pole length should be in reference to the shoulder. Also, skis have different heights from the ground (compare a Fischer and Madshus, for instance). THis can create another stack-up variation of a couple of cm's. Also, standing on a floor, the ski pole tip often extends a couple of cm below the basket.... ...this part of the pole will be below the snow surface when skiing.

So... ...to examine the extremes: If you're standing barefoot on a floor and your pole tip is on the floor and the pole comes up to your lip, then when you're in boots, on skis, on snow, those same poles may be below your chin. Another skier may test his pole length on-snow with skis on, poles in the snow, and the sticks come up to his lip. Same measurement (if you don't account for the details) but very different results.

I also agree with Nathan's comment that variation in pole length can alter technique. Extra long poles will certainly work against a low, deep compression, when skating uphill.

For me, I use poles that are just above the top of my shoulder while standing upright on skis (on snow, with the ski pole tips in the snow). This is a comfortable height for V2 (1-skate) and V1 (offset) techniques. On long, flat, fast sections of field-skate, I sometimes wish they were a bit longer, but for overall useage (lower body position for V1 and V2 during pre-load) this is a good length (for me). When I began skiing, recommended pole lengths were a bit longer. Changing pole lengths will feel funny and it will take some time to really adjust.

-mark waechter


Quote:
Originally Posted by steve
So what is the general consensus out there on pole length for skating??
  #6  
Old December 22nd 04, 12:17 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


steve wrote:
So what is the general consensus out there on pole length for

skating??



My current skate poles are at what is suggested for my height -

160cms,
I'm 5,11' . Standing on my ski boots the poles go to my nose .



Try the poles when you're standing in your boots, on your skis and on
the snow. If the poles still go to your nose, you're not 5'11".
Jay Tegeder
"On the podium if the right people don't show up!" JT

  #7  
Old December 22nd 04, 05:21 AM
steve steve is offline
Member
 
First recorded activity by SkiBanter: Dec 2004
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 31
Default

With boots on, and standing on skis, they went to my upper lip approx. I was under the impression the height of the pole was determined when standing in the boot only, and not on the ski?

An update on this ... I have since cut my pole down about 3-4 cms, and I must say it has made a big difference to my overall technique. With my
pole now a little below my chin (on boots AND skis), I concur with Mark about the comfort with both the V2 and V1 technques with the slightly shorter pole. No more 'hitch' in my stride as was mentioned by someone, both techniques flow much more smoothly, yet a hell of a lot more juice when compared to the
classic poles (obviously).

The biggest thing I've noticed, is being able to get over the poles much more easily, yet not so easily that I'm on top of them without doing anything. With good forward momentum/swing, I'm bearing down on poles that are in the 'sweet spot' for core activation. It just 'feels' right.

Maybe I have shorter arms than average, or perhaps its just the hillier terrain I'm skiing in but having the poles at the 160cm recommendation seemed to be throwing my technique off a bit (ie. less efficient). I say this speaking only for myself - I expect it might be quite different for someone else.

Funny to think of my old 'early 90's poles' - probably could
of made 2 sets of poles out of them !!

happy trails ..

Steve




Quote:
Originally Posted by
steve wrote:
So what is the general consensus out there on pole length for

skating??



My current skate poles are at what is suggested for my height -

160cms,
I'm 5,11' . Standing on my ski boots the poles go to my nose .



Try the poles when you're standing in your boots, on your skis and on
the snow. If the poles still go to your nose, you're not 5'11".
Jay Tegeder
"On the podium if the right people don't show up!" JT
 




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