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#41
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Stepping forward. I suggest this is backward. Don't work at or think of
stepping the foot forward. Instead bring the body forward and the recovering foot comes forward with the body and is just "there." Good skiers look like they are stepping forward because they are bringing their bodies forward. Work on cause, not effect. To me stepping forward always feels wrong. Bringing the body forward and having the ski be right under the body when I step on it feels right. Ski Exuberantly, Hank Garretson Mammoth Lakes, California |
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#42
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Stepping forward. I suggest this is backward. Don't work at or think of
stepping the foot forward. Instead bring the body forward and the recovering foot comes forward with the body and is just "there." Good skiers look like they are stepping forward because they are bringing their bodies forward. Work on cause, not effect. To me stepping forward always feels wrong. Bringing the body forward and having the ski be right under the body when I step on it feels right. Ski Exuberantly, Hank Garretson Mammoth Lakes, California |
#43
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Nathan wrote
if Ken Roberts had stood there with a good coach for two hours, he could have made more progress in those two hours than he has in the past year I'm at best an ignorant amateur in coaching athletes, but in this case I do have a special perspective to offer -- so here it is: I had a great year of learning new techniques of ski-skating, and I had a lot of fun learning it. The improvements in performance that I achieved were way beyond anything I ever expected. In the latest weeks since I got those tips from Andrew and Jim and JanneG and Jay based on my recent videos, I've skated really tough hilly courses -- sometimes the whole course for several hours with my Legs only, no poles -- where a year ago I would have said was only possible for elite athletes with amazing VO2max. Playing with new motions and new perceptions has been really fun in itself. Even if some of the motions were wrong, they were still interesting and fun to play with. I guess some people think that "working on technique" is some unfortunate necessity to achieve better race-finish-order results. For me it's a chance to discover new joyful motions, or new amazement on arriving at the top of a hill without having worked so hard. And while I am an ignorant amateur about the coaching process, I have heard something different -- from very experienced coaches, some on this newsgroup, another that I paid for face-to-face coaching -- heard that achieveing a fundamental deep change in one's XC ski technique can take a long time -- like "months" is not unusual. Possibly standing there "with a good coach for two hours" works instantly for the gifted athletes that come to Nathan for coaching, but perhaps my rate of progress is not a failure for the rest of us "less gifted" merely normally athletic skiers. If you are really into learning to ski well, you will do yourself a lot of good by joining a local club program, going to a few clinics in your area, and perhaps attending a camp. I've done all those things. (Well almost, since we don't have a local "club" with a "program" -- but I've gotten the local face-to-face coaching which is available.) My skiing technique has benefited from all those things. I find it rather odd to be trigger for a warning against "trying to figure this out without any coaching" -- since I support all those coaching and instructional things, including very much our local and regional face-to-face coaching. Many times in conversations I've recommended that a person get face-to-face coaching from a professional, and suggested specific places to find that. I could believe that my website on XC ski technique has more instances of phrases like "this is difficult to learn without an instructor" or "best to get an instructor to work on this" than any other website or book on XC ski technique. Now I do also like to analyze videos of my own technique -- and inviting other people to help me analyze them. It's another prong of my overall learning strategy. I don't think it's a "magic bullet" for me or anybody else. Analyzing video is very tricky -- and so is every other approach to XC ski technique. And for me what I've found is that both of these rounds of public video analysis have lead to deep new insights which I didn't get from other coaching approaches. Ken _________________________________ Comcast wrote I have coached a lot of people who do not have World Cup fitness and they have all managed these techniques very well. It is not that the techniques themselves require a huge engine and enormous strength; getting them down takes a lot of practice and repetition. I have taught this to 16-year-old girls and 50 year-old 5th-wave master skiers. They struggled with it at first because it does take a lot of coordination and repetition to break old habits. But with good coaching (I'll pat myself on the back here), anyone can do it and once they get it, they ski much faster and more efficiently. I think the problem is, and probably most of the coaches who are paying attention here will agree, that many of you are trying to figure this out without any coaching or help from the outside. I can't believe how often we hear "I learned more in the last two days than I have in the past five years" at clinics and camps. Ken has a great idea here to get video analysis from all over the world, but to be honest, if he had stood there with a good coach for two hours, he could have made more progress in those two hours than he has in the past year, even with all the effort he puts into studying technique on his own. Technique is a fascinating thing, and I'm not suggesting that you give up this passion for figuring it out, because that is an important part of making it happen. If you are really into learning to ski well, you will do yourself a lot of good by joining a local club program, going to a few clinics in your area, and perhaps attending a camp. You will be amazed at how much you will get out of it. -Nathan www.nsavage.com |
#44
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Nathan wrote also
In V1, you should be planting way farther forward, somewhere in front of your toes at the very least. Probably more like 15-30cm in front of your toes. Maybe that's right for the athletes at the level that Nathan coaches. And I can see how planting my pole-tips out in front could work for me on flat or gentle terrain. But I do not train with poling workouts over the summer any more. I tried it one or two years, getting real serious about double-poling on rollerskis. I bet that's what most of the athletes coached by Nathan do, and as a result I became a tremendously strong poler, and I found it delivered a tremendous gain for my classic skiing the next winter. But I refuse to do that any more. So for skating up a steep hill, I just don't think I have the strength to get an effective pole-push if I plant my pole-tips 6-12 inches (15-30 cm) in front of my toe. When I work out the geometry and physics of poling, I find out that the "low-gear" angle to best deliver high force at low speed is with the pole angled further back. Maybe that angle is better for me (and lots of other non-podium skiers). Also maybe my poles are too long for me for that steep a hill. Strangely, when I look at Ole-Einar Björndalen making his second pole-plant at time :03 of the skateClimbSlomo.mpg video on JanneG's Technic page, it looks to me like he's planting his pole-tip right next to the toe of his boot. And in the SkateFeetSlomo.mpg video, I'm not finding the 15-30cm in front of toe there either. Ken ________________________________________________ Comcast wrote . . . 2. You need to move your hips up and forward and lean more forward at the ankle. You are sitting back a bit too much which is keeping your whole body back. Notice that your poles are planting around your mid-foot or behind. In V1, you should be planting way farther forward, somewhere in front of your toes at the very least. Probably more like 15-30cm in front of your toes. The forward step is also contributing to this. 3. You are collapsing your upper body before the pole plant. If you can stand up and lean forward more, you should be able to land more "on top of" your poles. This will give you a huge boost in power. Good Luck, Nathan www.nsavage.com ______________________________________________ |
#45
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I've taken two skating clinics from Nathan, and I believe he has helped my technique alot.
I think this forum is quite lucky to have someone like Nathan answering questions, commentiing, and evaluating (Ken's) form. To respond to his comments and suggestions in a somewhat passive aggressive argumentative fashion is rude. Sure, the distance you plant your pole in front of your toe depends on the gradient of the terrain. But if Nathan looks at your video after you solicit his opinion, and suggests you are not planting your pole far enough in front of your toe then you are probably not. The aspects of technique that Nathan teaches are FUNDAMENTAL and can be learned by anyone - not just podium finishers. For what it is worth Ken, I think you are intiating your V1 with a step forward. Try skating from ski to ski, using both legs equally. Also, you have a lot of extraneous upper body and head movement (V1) that is probably wasting energy and thus inefficient. Jim Maybe that's right for the athletes at the level that Nathan coaches. So for skating up a steep hill, I just don't think I have the strength to get an effective pole-push if I plant my pole-tips 6-12 inches (15-30 cm) in front of my toe. When I work out the geometry and physics of poling, I find out that the "low-gear" angle to best deliver high force at low speed is with the pole angled further back. Maybe that angle is better for me (and lots of other non-podium skiers). Also maybe my poles are too long for me for that steep a hill. |
#46
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Ken, your upper body strength has nothing to do with it. If you move your
hips forward and get more ankle lean, you will plant your poles farther forward and without any change in the strength you push on the poles, the "falling" on the poles will move you forward much more efficiently. You can't just plant your poles farther forward without changing anything else... When you sit in the back and you are "behind" your poles, you use more arm energy to get less forward push due to the biomechanics. Your using 100% arms and from a disadvantage biomechanically. When you get "on top of your poles", your body weight and core muscles push on the poles, and you are using your skeleton to hold the position and push, rather than only your muscles. My point about coaching was not to try to rag on you for doing what you're doing, it was to point out that if you find a good coach, you should be able to fix many of these things almost instantly. Technique advancement does take a long time and a lot of practice, but anyone can do it. I coach athletes of all abilities - from people who have never skied before to intermediate-level master skiers to elite juniors and seniors. Everyone can change their technique, and it is the "intermediate" skiers who I see improve the fastest. Elite skiers are dealing with subtle changes and often have very ingrained habits, so it often takes longer for them to make changes. Nathan www.nsavage.com "Ken Roberts" wrote in message ... Nathan wrote also In V1, you should be planting way farther forward, somewhere in front of your toes at the very least. Probably more like 15-30cm in front of your toes. Maybe that's right for the athletes at the level that Nathan coaches. And I can see how planting my pole-tips out in front could work for me on flat or gentle terrain. But I do not train with poling workouts over the summer any more. I tried it one or two years, getting real serious about double-poling on rollerskis. I bet that's what most of the athletes coached by Nathan do, and as a result I became a tremendously strong poler, and I found it delivered a tremendous gain for my classic skiing the next winter. But I refuse to do that any more. So for skating up a steep hill, I just don't think I have the strength to get an effective pole-push if I plant my pole-tips 6-12 inches (15-30 cm) in front of my toe. When I work out the geometry and physics of poling, I find out that the "low-gear" angle to best deliver high force at low speed is with the pole angled further back. Maybe that angle is better for me (and lots of other non-podium skiers). Also maybe my poles are too long for me for that steep a hill. Strangely, when I look at Ole-Einar Björndalen making his second pole-plant at time :03 of the skateClimbSlomo.mpg video on JanneG's Technic page, it looks to me like he's planting his pole-tip right next to the toe of his boot. And in the SkateFeetSlomo.mpg video, I'm not finding the 15-30cm in front of toe there either. Ken ________________________________________________ Comcast wrote . . . 2. You need to move your hips up and forward and lean more forward at the ankle. You are sitting back a bit too much which is keeping your whole body back. Notice that your poles are planting around your mid-foot or behind. In V1, you should be planting way farther forward, somewhere in front of your toes at the very least. Probably more like 15-30cm in front of your toes. The forward step is also contributing to this. 3. You are collapsing your upper body before the pole plant. If you can stand up and lean forward more, you should be able to land more "on top of" your poles. This will give you a huge boost in power. Good Luck, Nathan www.nsavage.com ______________________________________________ |
#47
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"Gene Goldenfeld" wrote in message ... I agree that Ken is not planting his poles nearly far enough forward; he's not on each ski long enough to do so. I do think your statement about where the tips should be planted is subject to misunderstanding, however. Assuming reasonably good technique, isn't the position a function of individual poling style and terrain? Yes, pole plant will change with terrain, speed and among individuals. But in general, if you are poling behind your toe, then something is probably not right with your body position. My point was not to say that his pole plant was incorrect, but that his poles are not planting in the correct position because his hips are back and he is not leaning far forward enough at the ankles. In other words, his poles land too far back because his body position is too far back. Not because he is planting incorrectly. Does that make sense? He can use the pole plant as a cue to see if he is getting forward, but the pole plant itself is not the problem. Nathan www.nsavage.com |
#48
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Hi Ken,
I don't know why I keep getting lured into this, but here goes: I'm not saying that learning techique is not fun in itself, nor am I saying that technique improvement is not a lifelong pursuit. It is a very worthwhile way to waste one's time. I will say it again, though: if you had a good coach with you for two hours you probably could have made more progress in those two hours than you have in the past year working on your own. To me, it seems a shame that you spend probably hundreds of hours reading and writing and analyzing technique, but when you get out on snow, you are still struggling with some of the fundamentals. That may be fine with you, and that is OK with me, but if you spent some time with good coaching, you could quickly master those fundamentals and use your intense interest of technique analysis to refine subtleties instead of struggling to ski uphill. I'm not trying to discourage you from pursuing technique improvement or learning on your own. I'm just trying to point out that with some good help, you could probably improve much more rapidly. And I should probably just donate two hours of lesson time myself so I don't keep getting sucked into these discussions. -Nathan www.nsavage.com "Ken Roberts" wrote in message ... Nathan wrote if Ken Roberts had stood there with a good coach for two hours, he could have made more progress in those two hours than he has in the past year I'm at best an ignorant amateur in coaching athletes, but in this case I do have a special perspective to offer -- so here it is: I had a great year of learning new techniques of ski-skating, and I had a lot of fun learning it. The improvements in performance that I achieved were way beyond anything I ever expected. In the latest weeks since I got those tips from Andrew and Jim and JanneG and Jay based on my recent videos, I've skated really tough hilly courses -- sometimes the whole course for several hours with my Legs only, no poles -- where a year ago I would have said was only possible for elite athletes with amazing VO2max. Playing with new motions and new perceptions has been really fun in itself. Even if some of the motions were wrong, they were still interesting and fun to play with. I guess some people think that "working on technique" is some unfortunate necessity to achieve better race-finish-order results. For me it's a chance to discover new joyful motions, or new amazement on arriving at the top of a hill without having worked so hard. And while I am an ignorant amateur about the coaching process, I have heard something different -- from very experienced coaches, some on this newsgroup, another that I paid for face-to-face coaching -- heard that achieveing a fundamental deep change in one's XC ski technique can take a long time -- like "months" is not unusual. Possibly standing there "with a good coach for two hours" works instantly for the gifted athletes that come to Nathan for coaching, but perhaps my rate of progress is not a failure for the rest of us "less gifted" merely normally athletic skiers. If you are really into learning to ski well, you will do yourself a lot of good by joining a local club program, going to a few clinics in your area, and perhaps attending a camp. I've done all those things. (Well almost, since we don't have a local "club" with a "program" -- but I've gotten the local face-to-face coaching which is available.) My skiing technique has benefited from all those things. I find it rather odd to be trigger for a warning against "trying to figure this out without any coaching" -- since I support all those coaching and instructional things, including very much our local and regional face-to-face coaching. Many times in conversations I've recommended that a person get face-to-face coaching from a professional, and suggested specific places to find that. I could believe that my website on XC ski technique has more instances of phrases like "this is difficult to learn without an instructor" or "best to get an instructor to work on this" than any other website or book on XC ski technique. Now I do also like to analyze videos of my own technique -- and inviting other people to help me analyze them. It's another prong of my overall learning strategy. I don't think it's a "magic bullet" for me or anybody else. Analyzing video is very tricky -- and so is every other approach to XC ski technique. And for me what I've found is that both of these rounds of public video analysis have lead to deep new insights which I didn't get from other coaching approaches. Ken _________________________________ Comcast wrote I have coached a lot of people who do not have World Cup fitness and they have all managed these techniques very well. It is not that the techniques themselves require a huge engine and enormous strength; getting them down takes a lot of practice and repetition. I have taught this to 16-year-old girls and 50 year-old 5th-wave master skiers. They struggled with it at first because it does take a lot of coordination and repetition to break old habits. But with good coaching (I'll pat myself on the back here), anyone can do it and once they get it, they ski much faster and more efficiently. I think the problem is, and probably most of the coaches who are paying attention here will agree, that many of you are trying to figure this out without any coaching or help from the outside. I can't believe how often we hear "I learned more in the last two days than I have in the past five years" at clinics and camps. Ken has a great idea here to get video analysis from all over the world, but to be honest, if he had stood there with a good coach for two hours, he could have made more progress in those two hours than he has in the past year, even with all the effort he puts into studying technique on his own. Technique is a fascinating thing, and I'm not suggesting that you give up this passion for figuring it out, because that is an important part of making it happen. If you are really into learning to ski well, you will do yourself a lot of good by joining a local club program, going to a few clinics in your area, and perhaps attending a camp. You will be amazed at how much you will get out of it. -Nathan www.nsavage.com |
#49
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"Ken Roberts" wrote in message
... Nathan wrote 1. You are stepping too far forward with your V1. I agree that I'm landing my next ski significantly in front of my previous ski. The funny thing is that I'm against the "forward step" move, and I've several times posted notes to this newsgroup explaining why I don't think it's a good idea. The question I have is: Is it the distance of how forward I land the ski that's the main problem, or is it the biomechanical method that I was using to get it there? This is chicken/egg and irrelevant. The biomechanics is directly affected (negatively) by how far you step forward. By stepping forward, you cut off power because in order to step forward, you have to straighten your back leg. Once that leg is straight, you can't push off of it very hard. If you can make more of a sideways push, your leg will push through a longer stroke. You still step forward, but only after you have completed the kick, and certainly not as dramatically as you are doing in your video. The other possibility is Andrew Lee's idea is that the key is in the biomechanics -- to make the forward move from higher up in my body, like under my rib cage. And Jim Grau's observation that Bjorndalen is not just "stepping" his foot, but advancing his non-pushing hip. Yes. This is what I was trying to say when I said that your pole is planting too far back. If you get your hips and ankle bend right, you can't step forward easily and therefore your hip and upper body go with your leg forward. That way you don't have to drag your body back and forth each stroke. When you get forward, your pole plant will come with you. The pole plant is not the problem, just an easily observed symptom of body position issues. You can use where you plant your poles to see if you are improving your body position. 2. You need to move your hips up and forward and lean more forward at the ankle. I agree that I wish I had more forward-flex in my ankle than what I see me doing in that V1 side-view video. And again it's funny that I'm a big believer in forward ankle flex and forward hips, and have posted about it to this newsgroup. I do think I detect a distinct "knee-drive" forward-ankle-flex move in my Legs-only side-view video, but mostly in my last two stroke-cycles in the second half of it. You need to be much more aggressive with the knee drive and follow it up with a push. Right now you do a very abbreviated knee drive followed immediately by standing up on your push leg. You can get much more out of both of these actions. You are sitting back a bit too much Yes, instructors have been pointing that out to me for years, and I figured out the physics of why too much sitting back is ineffective -- and I've been working to lessen it for years. *** Mystery *** How can it be that I believe in these things Nathan is saying -- and have been told most of them before by previous instructors both face-to-face and remote by video -- Yet I'm still not doing them right ??? This is not a mystery. Not enough good coaching? Overanalysis? A good coach can not only tell you what you're doing wrong, but how to do it right. In the past few years of coaching, I've learned hundreds of different ways to say the same thing because not everyone understands the same approach. Even though I'm always teaching the same techniques, I have different approaches depending on who is listening. When you are standing there working with someone, you can see how they react to what you've said and how his/her skiing changes in response to it. Sometimes, you even see patterns in people and you know what to say that will make it click. -Nathan www.nsavage.com |
#50
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Yes, it makes sense. I just think one has to be especially careful
about spelling things out with someone like Ken. I do think, tho, from a pedagogical standpoint that his poling can't be straightened out until he learns to skate from ski to ski instead of stepping or running forward; i.e., until he gets the sense of how to stay on each ski longer and use his edges to help get up the hill. Right now (video), he's planting about as far forward as his legs are giving him the time to do. Gene Nathan Schultz wrote: "Gene Goldenfeld" wrote in message ... I agree that Ken is not planting his poles nearly far enough forward; he's not on each ski long enough to do so. I do think your statement about where the tips should be planted is subject to misunderstanding, however. Assuming reasonably good technique, isn't the position a function of individual poling style and terrain? Yes, pole plant will change with terrain, speed and among individuals. But in general, if you are poling behind your toe, then something is probably not right with your body position. My point was not to say that his pole plant was incorrect, but that his poles are not planting in the correct position because his hips are back and he is not leaning far forward enough at the ankles. In other words, his poles land too far back because his body position is too far back. Not because he is planting incorrectly. Does that make sense? He can use the pole plant as a cue to see if he is getting forward, but the pole plant itself is not the problem. Nathan www.nsavage.com |
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