A Snow and ski forum. SkiBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » SkiBanter forum » Skiing Newsgroups » Nordic Skiing
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Warm and cold skis



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old May 24th 05, 11:37 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Warm and cold skis

How different should a person expect skis labelled as warm or cold to
be? Would a person skiing for recreation be at a great disadvantage if
they were using a warm ski on cold snow?
Pete

Ads
  #2  
Old May 25th 05, 03:37 AM
Gary Jacobson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


wrote in message
oups.com...
How different should a person expect skis labelled as warm or cold to
be?


Sometimes warm skis work better in cold conditions and cold skis work better
in warm conditions. Flex characteristics, side cut, base structure,
stiffness at various points on the ski, and base material determine in
varying degrees whether it will work well in a certain conditions for a
particular skier.

Would a person skiing for recreation be at a great disadvantage if
they were using a warm ski on cold snow?
Pete


What I have stated are generalities that could be argued, but for
recreational skiing it is not important to ferret out the differences
between a well fitting warm or cold ski. For a high level racer it can be
critical.

Gary Jacobson
Rosendale, NY


  #3  
Old May 25th 05, 01:14 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks, Gary. That's a help. Pete

  #4  
Old May 25th 05, 03:41 PM
Zach Caldwell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wrote:
How different should a person expect skis labelled as warm or cold to
be? Would a person skiing for recreation be at a great disadvantage if
they were using a warm ski on cold snow?
Pete


Hi Pete - I think Gary has already touched on the issues here. I'll try
to complicate things a bit.

Ski companies have different ways of designating warm versus cold skis,
and they don't all change the same variables when they define the
differences. Basically, skis can have different base materials,
different base finishes, and different flex characteristics. Here's a
brand-by-brand rundown of how different companies approach this:

Atomic: All skis have the same base material and factory base finish.
The difference between the "K" and the "W" constructions are in the
flex characteristics. The cold skate skis have a longer, cooler
pressure distribution while the warm skis tend to have somewhat lighter
tip pressure and a shorter, hotter pressure distribution. In general,
I've found that the cold skis have a smoother feel and better
performance in softer conditions, while the warm skis are a bit better
in tracks with a harder base. The classic skis have different wax
pocket constructions as well as the above described differences. In the
past the cold classic skis have had a very tapered pocket and on some
skis it tended to be a bit short while the warms classic skis had a
more elongated and flattened pocket with a more active response. The
new (for next year) cold skis have pocket characteristics similar to
what I've seen in the warm skis of the past, but with improved
consistency. Generally the pockets are longer and positioned further
forward on the ski. I haven't had next year's warm skis on the flex
tester yet so I can't comment definitively on those, but I would expect
them to have a higher and more active pocket.

Fischer: Cold and plus skis have different base materials and different
factory grinds. Both base materials are effective in a very wide range
of conditions and the factory grind is more what defines the range of
effective conditions for these skis. However, they both still work in a
wide range of conditions. In both the skate and classic skis there are
subtle differences between the flex characteristics of the cold and
plus models. In general, like with Atomic, the cold skis have somewhat
longer pressure distribution and are better suited to softer snow.
Fischer is introducing a third classic ski for next year, designated
"wet" as a further addition to their standard cold and plus skis. The
wet ski is actually a totally different construction with very
different characteristics from the "812" construction of the cold and
plus models. The wet ski, or "902" construction has a much higher, more
active pocket which is positioned further back on the ski. Additionaly,
the 902 has distinct tip and tail "splay" when the skis are loaded,
resulting in extremely light tip and tail pressure. The ski was
originally designed for sloppy, wet klister conditions but many top
level racers have found that the pocket characteristics of the 902 make
them really good for some racers in all but the softest conditions.

Madshus: Madshus has two classic skis and three skate skis for next
year. The cold classic ski has a long, low pocket and long pressure
distribution front and rear. The base material is formulated for colder
snow and the factory grind is a little too aggressive for most of the
cold conditions we see on this continent. The wet classic ski is more
similar to the Fischer 902. It's got a wet snow base and a relatively
heavy factory structure. There are three Madshus skate skis for next
year. The 266 is the "regular conditions" ski and the one that people
are most familiar with. Relatively cool pressure distribution, smooth
flex characteristics and significant side-cut. In the past this ski has
been available in either cold or wet base materials. For next year it
will only come with a cold base and finish. The 276 is a "hard-pack"
ski. Higher bridge camber, more active bridge flex, shorter and hotter
pressure distribution and a more dampened tip make this a more
energetic and active ski for harder conditions. Same sidecut as the
266, and the same cold base. The new 296 or "soft conditions" ski has
no sidecut and a narrower forebody. It's got a high half-weight camber
but a soft finish and the flex pattern cools-out dramatically as the
load on the ski increases. The base is formulated for wet conditions
and comes with a heavier factory structure.

Rossignol - I deal with these guys less than the others, so I'm not as
qualified to comment. But they've only got one base material. They've
got three classic skis (C1, C2 and C3) which vary from soft, low camber
to stiffer and higher camber. The C2 seems to be the most "universal"
ski. According to Jim Fredericks they're all based on the same basic
design philosophy, but fit to very different standards. For skating I
believe that Rossi will have two models for next year. Somebody who
knows more may have to set me straight on this. But I think one will be
based on their F3 ski which is an outstanding all-around ski. The other
will be based on their F1 which is a specialty ski for sprint, hard
conditions and high speeds.

The long and short of it is - almost any of these skis can be picked to
be better or worse in a variety of conditions. Every company has one or
two top-end skis that can be picked to be "universal" in application.
Likewise, it could be very easy to end up with a ski that's good in one
range of conditions, but not in any other. However, a recreational
skier should be at no disadvantage using a warm ski in cold weather,
provided the skis characteristics match the skier and the conditions.
Kris Freeman's got nine pairs of skate skis that he regularly races on,
and only one is marked "cold". A handful of the others have got very
cold grinds on them, and are very fast in cold conditions...

Zach Caldwell
http://www.engineeredtuning.net/

  #5  
Old May 25th 05, 05:10 PM
sknyski
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

How different should a person expect skis labelled as warm or cold to
be?

Not very much, if you're only using them for recreation.



Would a person skiing for recreation be at a great disadvantage if
they were using a warm ski on cold snow?

No.

bt

  #6  
Old May 25th 05, 08:26 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I only have warm skis, and I have successfully used them in races at 5F
after putting a decent amount of cold wax on them.

So the answer is no, no disadvantage at all for recreation, and even
not much disadvantage in races.

Unless it's realy cold where you live, a warm ski is your all-around
ski.

wrote:
How different should a person expect skis labelled as warm or cold to
be? Would a person skiing for recreation be at a great disadvantage if
they were using a warm ski on cold snow?
Pete


  #7  
Old May 26th 05, 06:01 PM
Captain Nordic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

No, they won't.

  #8  
Old May 26th 05, 06:26 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thank you all for your responses. I suspected that the difference might
be more important to a racer than to me.
Pete

  #9  
Old June 8th 05, 03:31 PM
Alex
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Zach,

Thank you for your detailed postings, both on this topic and choice of
classic skis. It is really useful information which I find find hard
to source from elsewhere.

If you have the time and energy, I would be grateful for your opinion
as to why Veerpalu was using five-year old Fischers when he won at
Otepaa this year?


Alex


Zach Caldwell wrote:
wrote:
How different should a person expect skis labelled as warm or cold to
be? Would a person skiing for recreation be at a great disadvantage if
they were using a warm ski on cold snow?
Pete


Hi Pete - I think Gary has already touched on the issues here. I'll try
to complicate things a bit.

Ski companies have different ways of designating warm versus cold skis,
and they don't all change the same variables when they define the
differences. Basically, skis can have different base materials,
different base finishes, and different flex characteristics. Here's a
brand-by-brand rundown of how different companies approach this:

Atomic: All skis have the same base material and factory base finish.
The difference between the "K" and the "W" constructions are in the
flex characteristics. The cold skate skis have a longer, cooler
pressure distribution while the warm skis tend to have somewhat lighter
tip pressure and a shorter, hotter pressure distribution. In general,
I've found that the cold skis have a smoother feel and better
performance in softer conditions, while the warm skis are a bit better
in tracks with a harder base. The classic skis have different wax
pocket constructions as well as the above described differences. In the
past the cold classic skis have had a very tapered pocket and on some
skis it tended to be a bit short while the warms classic skis had a
more elongated and flattened pocket with a more active response. The
new (for next year) cold skis have pocket characteristics similar to
what I've seen in the warm skis of the past, but with improved
consistency. Generally the pockets are longer and positioned further
forward on the ski. I haven't had next year's warm skis on the flex
tester yet so I can't comment definitively on those, but I would expect
them to have a higher and more active pocket.

Fischer: Cold and plus skis have different base materials and different
factory grinds. Both base materials are effective in a very wide range
of conditions and the factory grind is more what defines the range of
effective conditions for these skis. However, they both still work in a
wide range of conditions. In both the skate and classic skis there are
subtle differences between the flex characteristics of the cold and
plus models. In general, like with Atomic, the cold skis have somewhat
longer pressure distribution and are better suited to softer snow.
Fischer is introducing a third classic ski for next year, designated
"wet" as a further addition to their standard cold and plus skis. The
wet ski is actually a totally different construction with very
different characteristics from the "812" construction of the cold and
plus models. The wet ski, or "902" construction has a much higher, more
active pocket which is positioned further back on the ski. Additionaly,
the 902 has distinct tip and tail "splay" when the skis are loaded,
resulting in extremely light tip and tail pressure. The ski was
originally designed for sloppy, wet klister conditions but many top
level racers have found that the pocket characteristics of the 902 make
them really good for some racers in all but the softest conditions.

Madshus: Madshus has two classic skis and three skate skis for next
year. The cold classic ski has a long, low pocket and long pressure
distribution front and rear. The base material is formulated for colder
snow and the factory grind is a little too aggressive for most of the
cold conditions we see on this continent. The wet classic ski is more
similar to the Fischer 902. It's got a wet snow base and a relatively
heavy factory structure. There are three Madshus skate skis for next
year. The 266 is the "regular conditions" ski and the one that people
are most familiar with. Relatively cool pressure distribution, smooth
flex characteristics and significant side-cut. In the past this ski has
been available in either cold or wet base materials. For next year it
will only come with a cold base and finish. The 276 is a "hard-pack"
ski. Higher bridge camber, more active bridge flex, shorter and hotter
pressure distribution and a more dampened tip make this a more
energetic and active ski for harder conditions. Same sidecut as the
266, and the same cold base. The new 296 or "soft conditions" ski has
no sidecut and a narrower forebody. It's got a high half-weight camber
but a soft finish and the flex pattern cools-out dramatically as the
load on the ski increases. The base is formulated for wet conditions
and comes with a heavier factory structure.

Rossignol - I deal with these guys less than the others, so I'm not as
qualified to comment. But they've only got one base material. They've
got three classic skis (C1, C2 and C3) which vary from soft, low camber
to stiffer and higher camber. The C2 seems to be the most "universal"
ski. According to Jim Fredericks they're all based on the same basic
design philosophy, but fit to very different standards. For skating I
believe that Rossi will have two models for next year. Somebody who
knows more may have to set me straight on this. But I think one will be
based on their F3 ski which is an outstanding all-around ski. The other
will be based on their F1 which is a specialty ski for sprint, hard
conditions and high speeds.

The long and short of it is - almost any of these skis can be picked to
be better or worse in a variety of conditions. Every company has one or
two top-end skis that can be picked to be "universal" in application.
Likewise, it could be very easy to end up with a ski that's good in one
range of conditions, but not in any other. However, a recreational
skier should be at no disadvantage using a warm ski in cold weather,
provided the skis characteristics match the skier and the conditions.
Kris Freeman's got nine pairs of skate skis that he regularly races on,
and only one is marked "cold". A handful of the others have got very
cold grinds on them, and are very fast in cold conditions...

Zach Caldwell
http://www.engineeredtuning.net/


  #10  
Old June 8th 05, 04:09 PM
Nathan Schultz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

A good pair of skis is a good pair of skis. When you find a fast pair
of skis, you don't give them up. My best pair of classic skis is from ca.
1997.

-Nathan
www.nsavage.com

"Alex" wrote in message
oups.com...
Zach,

Thank you for your detailed postings, both on this topic and choice of
classic skis. It is really useful information which I find find hard
to source from elsewhere.

If you have the time and energy, I would be grateful for your opinion
as to why Veerpalu was using five-year old Fischers when he won at
Otepaa this year?


Alex


Zach Caldwell wrote:
wrote:
How different should a person expect skis labelled as warm or cold to
be? Would a person skiing for recreation be at a great disadvantage if
they were using a warm ski on cold snow?
Pete


Hi Pete - I think Gary has already touched on the issues here. I'll try
to complicate things a bit.

Ski companies have different ways of designating warm versus cold skis,
and they don't all change the same variables when they define the
differences. Basically, skis can have different base materials,
different base finishes, and different flex characteristics. Here's a
brand-by-brand rundown of how different companies approach this:

Atomic: All skis have the same base material and factory base finish.
The difference between the "K" and the "W" constructions are in the
flex characteristics. The cold skate skis have a longer, cooler
pressure distribution while the warm skis tend to have somewhat lighter
tip pressure and a shorter, hotter pressure distribution. In general,
I've found that the cold skis have a smoother feel and better
performance in softer conditions, while the warm skis are a bit better
in tracks with a harder base. The classic skis have different wax
pocket constructions as well as the above described differences. In the
past the cold classic skis have had a very tapered pocket and on some
skis it tended to be a bit short while the warms classic skis had a
more elongated and flattened pocket with a more active response. The
new (for next year) cold skis have pocket characteristics similar to
what I've seen in the warm skis of the past, but with improved
consistency. Generally the pockets are longer and positioned further
forward on the ski. I haven't had next year's warm skis on the flex
tester yet so I can't comment definitively on those, but I would expect
them to have a higher and more active pocket.

Fischer: Cold and plus skis have different base materials and different
factory grinds. Both base materials are effective in a very wide range
of conditions and the factory grind is more what defines the range of
effective conditions for these skis. However, they both still work in a
wide range of conditions. In both the skate and classic skis there are
subtle differences between the flex characteristics of the cold and
plus models. In general, like with Atomic, the cold skis have somewhat
longer pressure distribution and are better suited to softer snow.
Fischer is introducing a third classic ski for next year, designated
"wet" as a further addition to their standard cold and plus skis. The
wet ski is actually a totally different construction with very
different characteristics from the "812" construction of the cold and
plus models. The wet ski, or "902" construction has a much higher, more
active pocket which is positioned further back on the ski. Additionaly,
the 902 has distinct tip and tail "splay" when the skis are loaded,
resulting in extremely light tip and tail pressure. The ski was
originally designed for sloppy, wet klister conditions but many top
level racers have found that the pocket characteristics of the 902 make
them really good for some racers in all but the softest conditions.

Madshus: Madshus has two classic skis and three skate skis for next
year. The cold classic ski has a long, low pocket and long pressure
distribution front and rear. The base material is formulated for colder
snow and the factory grind is a little too aggressive for most of the
cold conditions we see on this continent. The wet classic ski is more
similar to the Fischer 902. It's got a wet snow base and a relatively
heavy factory structure. There are three Madshus skate skis for next
year. The 266 is the "regular conditions" ski and the one that people
are most familiar with. Relatively cool pressure distribution, smooth
flex characteristics and significant side-cut. In the past this ski has
been available in either cold or wet base materials. For next year it
will only come with a cold base and finish. The 276 is a "hard-pack"
ski. Higher bridge camber, more active bridge flex, shorter and hotter
pressure distribution and a more dampened tip make this a more
energetic and active ski for harder conditions. Same sidecut as the
266, and the same cold base. The new 296 or "soft conditions" ski has
no sidecut and a narrower forebody. It's got a high half-weight camber
but a soft finish and the flex pattern cools-out dramatically as the
load on the ski increases. The base is formulated for wet conditions
and comes with a heavier factory structure.

Rossignol - I deal with these guys less than the others, so I'm not as
qualified to comment. But they've only got one base material. They've
got three classic skis (C1, C2 and C3) which vary from soft, low camber
to stiffer and higher camber. The C2 seems to be the most "universal"
ski. According to Jim Fredericks they're all based on the same basic
design philosophy, but fit to very different standards. For skating I
believe that Rossi will have two models for next year. Somebody who
knows more may have to set me straight on this. But I think one will be
based on their F3 ski which is an outstanding all-around ski. The other
will be based on their F1 which is a specialty ski for sprint, hard
conditions and high speeds.

The long and short of it is - almost any of these skis can be picked to
be better or worse in a variety of conditions. Every company has one or
two top-end skis that can be picked to be "universal" in application.
Likewise, it could be very easy to end up with a ski that's good in one
range of conditions, but not in any other. However, a recreational
skier should be at no disadvantage using a warm ski in cold weather,
provided the skis characteristics match the skier and the conditions.
Kris Freeman's got nine pairs of skate skis that he regularly races on,
and only one is marked "cold". A handful of the others have got very
cold grinds on them, and are very fast in cold conditions...

Zach Caldwell
http://www.engineeredtuning.net/




 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fischer 812 Camber Tony Nordic Skiing 7 January 7th 05 10:32 PM
question? fluoro vs. cheap wax | warm vs universal vs cold wax [email protected] Snowboarding 5 December 20th 04 04:47 AM
Near fatal ski incident Me Nordic Skiing 22 February 27th 04 02:47 PM
Best advice for a first time xc'er VISAMAN Nordic Skiing 17 November 20th 03 12:20 AM
Ski Mountaineering Clyde Backcountry Skiing 2 September 23rd 03 09:18 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SkiBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.