Home Position and Magic Turns

Mary Malmros wrote in message ...
MoonMan wrote:

Mary Malmros wrote:

MoonMan wrote:


Mary Malmros wrote:


Walt wrote:



foot2foot wrote:



When I visit different ski areas, one of the things I like to do
is to corner an instructor, or maybe just any skier, expert or
novice, who's attention I can hold just long enough to get an
answer to the following question:

What is *the* most essential thing a skier of any level must
have, must do, be able to do, or some such as this? What is
number one for anyone who skis?


Thanks for the warning. I've got my response ready:

I'll say "The most essential skill is being able to get away from
the crazy MF's you encounter on the hill" - then I'll ski away as
fast as I can.

I'd have said oxygen.

Three minutes, three hours, three days, three weeks...


I would agree, but it's 1 week, 1 Day for me

That wasn't time until skiing, Walt! ;-)


I won't ask what it was, but mine wasn't time until skiing it was time until
snow, I'll be skiing tommorow morning. on plastic

It's nothing risque. It's a survival rule-of-thumb mnemonic: a person
can survive three minutes without oxygen, three hours without shelter in
adverse conditions, three days without water, and three weeks without
food. When in a survival situation, it helps you to prioritize what
needs you must take care of first.

(Sorry I called you Walt, BTW;-))

Around here, you could be called a lot worse things than Walt!

(snip)
Change of subject...

Mary, how's the snow conditions at Mt. Snow? Is it worth the 6.5 hr trip it
would tae me to get up there?
Thanks,

JQ
Dancing on the edge

I have been watching the weather reports from Mt Snow, they only open
for the season tomorrow. There web site lists only 5 trails open. I was
up there about 3 weeks ago they were making snow and it was in the high
twenties, but not much had accumulated at that point.
I would make the 6.5 hour drive to Mt Snow, I just would not make the
trip so early in the season. It is normally under a 4 hour drive for me.
I think the first time I will head up to mountain to ski will be about
the 10th of december.
They do a excellent job of grooming the trails, and if you stay in Grand
Summit the ski in ski out aspect is great. Now the claim to have
installed wireless internet access, which has been one of my major
complaints with the facility. Just cannot do real work across a web tv
styled connection.

michael

JQ wrote:
(snip)
Change of subject...

Mary, how's the snow conditions at Mt. Snow? Is it worth the 6.5 hr trip it
would tae me to get up there?
Thanks,

JQ
Dancing on the edge

Sue wrote in message ...
In message , foot2foot
writes

If I could be excused an on-topic post, I'm not sure whether I agree
with you or not!

Above all else, hands
forward, for a beginner, almost to the tips of the skis.
snip bits I do agree with

People don't fall because of mysterious reasons, they
fall because they get out of position. So, when you find
yourself out of control, perhaps about to fall, you must simply
recover home position, and you'll be all good. Use your abs to
pull yourself forward again, and stretch your arms back out in
front of you. Once you have home position back, you'll have
control back, and you can do as you wish to deal with the
situation you're in.


It's not clear whether you're suggesting the beginners should ski in
that position all the time. I considered this point very carefully in a
whiteout last year, and concluded that we shouldn't.

Stretching our arms out in front of us doesn't cure a backward-seat
position; people have their weight too far back because they aren't
confident, and if you insist we stick their arms out we instinctively
shirt our rump further back to compensate.

Then, when we find ourselves in free fall, there's nothing we can do
about it. If I have my arms already stretched out and contract just my
abs, I'll be in a diving position, looking at the tips of my skis rather
than forwards, unable to ski in that position.

Whereas, if my elbows are by my sides, hands in front of them, and I
suddenly find myself in free fall, I can quickly reach my arms forward
and improve my chances on landing. I can ski like that if necessary, so
I can sort myself out at leisure.

It still wouldn't look very good, but in a whiteout nobody can see it.

You're absolutely right, Sue. As soon as ANYONE, not just a beginner,
reaches as far forward as possible, they have to stick their butt out
to maintain good balance. You want your elbows "at rest" beside your
rib cage and bent so that your hands are in the periphery of your
forward view.

Bob Lee wrote in article
...

* according to the article, DP was recently named Best Freerider of the
Century by a consortium of Euro sports journalists and athletes.

He designed my skis! He's a real character, have you seen his short film
"Namasthe"? Of him fanging down some mountains above India. It's extreme
skiing but what is remarkable is his speed and aggression. Mind blowing
stuff.

As for skiing position, everyone should find their own balanced stance.
Getting beginners jumping up and down is one way, having them take note of
how they land. People should not be told to ski in an assumed pose. (IMO).

And if a strange little man approaches me and asks what is the most
important first thing in skiing, I imagine I'll give my standard answer to
such things which is "er, about half past three?" (apologies to The
Goodies).

ant

"ant" wrote in message
news:01c4d4d5$7bb1f800$8456d5cb@notebook...
Bob Lee wrote in article
...

* according to the article, DP was recently named Best Freerider of the
Century by a consortium of Euro sports journalists and athletes.

He designed my skis! He's a real character, have you seen his short film
"Namasthe"? Of him fanging down some mountains above India. It's extreme
skiing but what is remarkable is his speed and aggression. Mind blowing
stuff.

As for skiing position, everyone should find their own balanced stance.
Getting beginners jumping up and down is one way, having them take note of
how they land. People should not be told to ski in an assumed pose. (IMO).

And if a strange little man approaches me and asks what is the most
important first thing in skiing, I imagine I'll give my standard answer to
such things which is "er, about half past three?" (apologies to The
Goodies).

My answer to stupid questions is always "27".

JQ wrote:

(snip)
Change of subject...

Mary, how's the snow conditions at Mt. Snow? Is it worth the 6.5 hr trip it
would tae me to get up there?


Not yet. I'll letcha know when it gets good. But we really need to get
out of this damn weather pattern before that'll happen.


--
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield, other days you're the bug.

"Sue" wrote in message
...


It's not clear whether you're suggesting the beginners should ski in
that position all the time.

Sure. Not only beginners, all skiers. Not only "should"
they (people never "should" do anything) do it, They do.
They either hold effective body position, or they fall.
Balance comes from body position. Lose it, you lose
balance. But, you nearly always have time to get it
back, if you think about skiing in that way. Body
position is balance.

I considered this point very carefully in a
whiteout last year, and concluded that we shouldn't.

Hmmmm.

Stretching our arms out in front of us doesn't cure a backward-seat
position;

Not by itself, you need the whole package. Knees, ankles,
*slight* bend at the waist, *slightly* rounded back, above all,
hands forward. I've found that for a pure beginner, hands farther
forward than what a more advance skier would do helps the
beginner to learn faster, and *helps* to keep them out of
the backseat.

You *can't* be in the backseat if you can pick up the tail
of a ski and leave the tip on the snow. This is a major key
to the magic turns system.


people have their weight too far back because they aren't
confident,

Probably true.

and if you insist we stick their arms out we instinctively
shirt our rump further back to compensate.

Maybe you seem to. "We" don't. You want a mostly
upright body. Well possible wherever your hands are.

Then, when we find ourselves in free fall, there's nothing we can do
about it.

Sure you can. Get out of the backseat. Use your abs to pull
yourself forward again, and extend your hands in front of you
once again. What do you mean by "freefall"?

If I have my arms already stretched out and contract just my
abs, I'll be in a diving position, looking at the tips of my skis rather
than forwards, unable to ski in that position.

Other than the eyes looking at the tips, that's exactly where
you want to be. *Really* forward on the skis so there's no
weight on the tails to prevent you from turning.


Whereas, if my elbows are by my sides, hands in front of them, and I
suddenly find myself in free fall,

What do you mean, a free fall? What kind of fall?

I can quickly reach my arms forward
and improve my chances on landing.

I'm not sure what you mean. Belly flop on the snow?

I can ski like that if necessary, so
I can sort myself out at leisure.

Nah, You don't need to do this. You're sort of putting
roadblocks in your own way. Elbows at the sides is hands
(almost) too far back. Hands any farther back than elbows
at the sides, and you *are* in trouble. Look at the typical
picture of a racer, or almost any skier for that matter.
Hands are forward. If you're a beginner or new skier,
by holding your hands that far back, you're only encouraging
yourself to get into the back seat.

For a beginner or a new skier, it's all about being as
forward as you can get. The key to the whole home position
thing is being able to pick up the tail of either ski while leaving
that ski's tip on the snow as you ski. If you can do that,
you're ok.

BTW, most new skiers are afraid of falling forward, "going
over the handlebars" of the skis. This is just about impossible
on long skis, the new skier needs to be shown this, and take
it to heart. Forward is safe. Back is falling. Another major key
to the magic turns system. Prove to the student that you really
*can't* fall forward on long skis.

"Bob Lee" wrote in message
...
foot2foot wrote:

When I visit different ski areas, one of the things I like to do is
to corner an instructor, or maybe just any skier, expert or
novice, who's attention I can hold just long enough to get an
answer to the following question:

What is *the* most essential thing a skier of any level must
have, must do, be able to do, or some such as this? What is
number one for anyone who skis?

Hey foot, leave the strangers alone and talk with us for a minute. I
was on a plane recently reading the December issue of Skiing magazine.
In an article called "Get Schooled" I found this quote by Dominique
Perret (who I think is a pretty damn good skier) that made me think of
you. The context was "Worst Learning Experience":

"The worst (learning experience) is when I hear a (ski instructor) who's
teaching 'this goes here and this goes here' like it's a machine they're
building. This is painful for me. This is not how it works. They are
taking the fun out of the sport before people have even learned it."

Dominque Perret* said it, I believe it, but do you have any thoughts
about it?

Yes, this is exactly what the magic turns system is about.
teaching the way the skis work, the mechanics of skiing,
instead of putting the student in a box, and say, look this
way, do this way, without ever explaining why. If the student
understands the few simple items that make up the mechanics
of skiing, they can blend, and pick and choose without limit.
Learn the mechanics of skiing and free yourself do use them
however whenever *you* choose, not someone else.

There is some structure to it, but it's not confining. It's like
everything else. You attain freedom through the self
discipline of confining yourself long enough to learn whatever
it is. Learn, practice. Play a Bach prelude and fuge. To be
able to do it is freedom. Play it any way you want. But
to be able to play it, you need the self discipline to learn
it. You have to confine yourself to free yourself.

You can't leave the "this goes here" out altogether though.
How can you teach a student to edge without saying
"move your knees and hips like this"?

"foot2foot" wrote in message
...

"Sue" wrote in message
...


It's not clear whether you're suggesting the beginners should ski in
that position all the time.

Sure. Not only beginners, all skiers. Not only "should"
they (people never "should" do anything) do it, They do.
They either hold effective body position, or they fall.
Balance comes from body position. Lose it, you lose
balance. But, you nearly always have time to get it
back, if you think about skiing in that way. Body
position is balance.

I considered this point very carefully in a
whiteout last year, and concluded that we shouldn't.

Hmmmm.

Stretching our arms out in front of us doesn't cure a backward-seat
position;

Not by itself, you need the whole package. Knees, ankles,
*slight* bend at the waist, *slightly* rounded back, above all,
hands forward. I've found that for a pure beginner, hands farther
forward than what a more advance skier would do helps the
beginner to learn faster, and *helps* to keep them out of
the backseat.

You *can't* be in the backseat if you can pick up the tail
of a ski and leave the tip on the snow. This is a major key
to the magic turns system.


people have their weight too far back because they aren't
confident,

Probably true.

and if you insist we stick their arms out we instinctively
shirt our rump further back to compensate.

Maybe you seem to. "We" don't. You want a mostly
upright body. Well possible wherever your hands are.

Then, when we find ourselves in free fall, there's nothing we can do
about it.

Sure you can. Get out of the backseat. Use your abs to pull
yourself forward again, and extend your hands in front of you
once again. What do you mean by "freefall"?

If I have my arms already stretched out and contract just my
abs, I'll be in a diving position, looking at the tips of my skis rather
than forwards, unable to ski in that position.

Other than the eyes looking at the tips, that's exactly where
you want to be. *Really* forward on the skis so there's no
weight on the tails to prevent you from turning.


Whereas, if my elbows are by my sides, hands in front of them, and I
suddenly find myself in free fall,

What do you mean, a free fall? What kind of fall?

I can quickly reach my arms forward
and improve my chances on landing.

I'm not sure what you mean. Belly flop on the snow?

I can ski like that if necessary, so
I can sort myself out at leisure.

Nah, You don't need to do this. You're sort of putting
roadblocks in your own way. Elbows at the sides is hands
(almost) too far back. Hands any farther back than elbows
at the sides, and you *are* in trouble. Look at the typical
picture of a racer, or almost any skier for that matter.
Hands are forward. If you're a beginner or new skier,
by holding your hands that far back, you're only encouraging
yourself to get into the back seat.

For a beginner or a new skier, it's all about being as
forward as you can get. The key to the whole home position
thing is being able to pick up the tail of either ski while leaving
that ski's tip on the snow as you ski. If you can do that,
you're ok.

BTW, most new skiers are afraid of falling forward, "going
over the handlebars" of the skis. This is just about impossible
on long skis, the new skier needs to be shown this, and take
it to heart. Forward is safe. Back is falling. Another major key
to the magic turns system. Prove to the student that you really
*can't* fall forward on long skis.



Foot I'll have to give ya props on this post.
some really good basic's in some of *your* more simple wording .