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AT binding help



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 23rd 04, 07:50 AM
Uli Hausmann
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Jonathan Shefftz schrieb:

Also also, a German ski touring magazing last year conducted a test
that essentially measured the coupling rigidity of rando bindings, and
the Diamir came out best. I have a copy I can e-mail to any
interested folks.


Although it might be interesting, i wouldn't trust that kind of tests.
In my experience all the ski related tests in german magazines i know
are kind of "guided" (by interests, relationships, dependency ...).

The only independent instance i'd accept is the Swiss Institute for
Research of avalanches (SLF) :-))

Greetings,

Ulrich
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  #12  
Old August 25th 04, 08:02 PM
John Red-Horse
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I know that this is old business, but...

In article ,
lac.stanford.edu wrote:

_ I'm sold, I don't see any reason to buy another pair of regular
alpine bindings again, at least for the kind of skiing at a
resort that I do ( mostly steeps, powder). If you really want
to bash moguls all day then you might want to consider a regular
alpine binding.


....I thought about this too when I was lining my daughter out with her
skiing kit; then I learned that the release technology on AT bindings
is of the early-70's full alpine class, and I reconsidered. Maybe this
point should be researched more fully...

cheers,
john
  #13  
Old August 25th 04, 09:03 PM
Booker C. Bense
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article ,
John Red-Horse wrote:
I know that this is old business, but...

In article ,
bbense+rec.skiing.backcountry.Aug.17.04@telemark. slac.stanford.edu wrote:

_ I'm sold, I don't see any reason to buy another pair of regular
alpine bindings again, at least for the kind of skiing at a
resort that I do ( mostly steeps, powder). If you really want
to bash moguls all day then you might want to consider a regular
alpine binding.


...I thought about this too when I was lining my daughter out with her
skiing kit; then I learned that the release technology on AT bindings
is of the early-70's full alpine class, and I reconsidered. Maybe this
point should be researched more fully...


_ I entirely argee with you and should have said so in my post.
That's the one place that AT bindings fall short. I think they
are "safe enough" for me and the generally cautious controlled
way that I ski. I rarely fall and even more rarely do my alpine
bindings release. I was just thinking of durablity in the above
post and not release safety.

_ The problem is that I don't think there is any available data
to research. Reading the release setting section of any AT
binding instructions is a sobering experience. As far as I
know there is no standardized test/setting procedure for
AT bindings as there are for standard alpine bindings.

Here's a reasonably good summary of the DIN issue from
a reliable shop

http://thebackcountry.net/backskiing...eebindings.htm

_ Booker C. Bense



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  #14  
Old August 26th 04, 05:57 PM
Jonathan Shefftz
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(John Red-Horse) wrote in message ...

...I thought about this too when I was lining my daughter out with her
skiing kit; then I learned that the release technology on AT bindings
is of the early-70's full alpine class, and I reconsidered. Maybe this
point should be researched more fully...


Well, yes and no.

First, I think it was more like the late 70s (rather than the early
70s) that bindings (e.g., Salomon 727, Tyrolia 350) first achieved a
safe lateral toe release function with effective anti-friction
devices, along with a reliable vertical heel release. The incidence
of lower-leg fractures plummeted. Unfortunately, this beneficial
development was offset to a large extent by a rapid rise in injuries
to various soft tissues in the knee joint (particularly the ACL),
mainly because ski boots became taller and stiffer (and not because of
any changes in bindings).

Almost three decades later, alpine downhill ski bindings have become
far more sophisticated in their design and materials. (Atomic now has
an electronic binding for over a grand that features radio
communication between the toe and heel.) And what his happened to
injury rates? Basically nothing. In economics-speak, the marginal
utility of binding technology advancement has been essentially zero.
(ACL injuries seem to be lessening slightly in recent years because of
new ski design, with the "phantom foot" injury mode mitigated by
shorter ski lengths at the same that deeper sidecuts unfortunately
offset this mitigation - more background of that stuff available he
http://www.vermontskisafety.com/faq_...iers_menu.html )

So do the Diamir and Naxo use late 70s binding technology? Yes. Do
the historical statistics therefore imply any compromised safety? No.

By contrast, the Silvretta 404/500/505/555 and Dynafit
TLT/TriStep/Comfort lack a lateral release ability at the toe, instead
substituting lateral release at the heel. (The Silvretta Pure seems
to offer a lateral toe release, although somehow controlled by a
mechanism at the heel?) I am unable to speak to the engineering
implications of this, but I do know that no modern alpine downhill
binding has ever lacked a lateral toe release - draw your own
conclusions (if any) from this. And until Line finally introduces its
alpine downhill binding (been promised for several years now), no
alpine downhill binding with separate toe and heel units (as opposed
to the plate bindings that briefly flourished, e.g., Spademan, Burt)
has ever had a lateral heel release even in conjunction with a lateral
toe release. (No, the Tyrolia "diagonal" heels did not release
laterally, nor did the Marker turntables.)

As for The Backcountry's claim:
"In other words, we hope YOUR Dynafit or Fritchi [sic] binding thinks
a DIN of 8 is truly an 8, but we can't test it to make sure."
Once again, yes and no: no, The Backcountry can't test it; but yes,
anyone can who has access to a testing machine. By contrast,
backcountry.com, which already owns a tester for their alpine downhill
gear, tests all the bindings they mount. (The rest of that webpage at
The Backcountry contains a similarly frustrating mixture of helpful
advice and unhelpful inaccuracies.)

Regarding AT binding standards, yes they exist: they are available
from iso.org or din.de (# SN ISO 13992, along with ISO 13992 AMD 1),
although no, I haven't forked over the money to find out exactly what
they are and how they compare with alpine downhill standards. And the
release-setting instructions that come with my Diamirs are similar to
those that come with my alpine racing bindings.
  #15  
Old August 27th 04, 02:23 AM
Dan
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"Jonathan Shefftz" wrote

And the
release-setting instructions that come with my Diamirs are similar to
those that come with my alpine racing bindings.


My experience, entirely on the slopes at resorts, is that I cannot
tell the difference between my Diamirs and the Solomons they
"replaced." Well, once I accidentally clipped the heel release
and had a little instability until I figured where it came from...

The cost was even similar.

Anyone know if it is really unsafe to telemark on them? Store
rep said so, and I haven't tried. My tele skills have corroded over
the last 20 years or so, but I think it would be fun to try again
on the lower shallower slopes...

Dan


  #16  
Old August 27th 04, 07:16 AM
Uli Hausmann
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Dan schrieb:

My experience, entirely on the slopes at resorts, is that I cannot
tell the difference between my Diamirs and the Solomons they
"replaced."


I think, there is a slight difference between the Diamir and an alpine
race binding as for the lateral stability over the longitudinal axis
since the fixing points of the Fritschi are very narrow - compared to
let's say a Marker. But, that's really a point only for those who really
don races.

Anyone know if it is really unsafe to telemark on them? Store
rep said so, and I haven't tried. My tele skills have corroded over
the last 20 years or so, but I think it would be fun to try again
on the lower shallower slopes...


I'd think the rotating axis of all the Fritschi when the heel is open,
would not resist in the long run. In real telemarking much of this force
is done by the boot (which, because of this, tends to break earlier
thank the bindings). Not speaking about a totally different feeling. If
you like free heel skiing use free heel equipment :-))

Greetings,

Ulrich
  #17  
Old August 27th 04, 01:15 PM
David Off
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Jonathan Shefftz wrote:

Interesting stuff.

I'm still a bit baffled by the Pure marketing blurb. The toe unit is
solid, the heel can move backwards and vertically. Silvretta claim that
a lateral force at the toe will cause the boot to move backwards and the
toe to push out. It seems like a heel release to me but lots of people
argue otherwise.

The Dynafits, while they lack a DIN controlled lateral toe release will
release at the toe never-the-less.
  #19  
Old August 27th 04, 10:00 PM
Jonathan Shefftz
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I think the one thing that almost all AT skiers *and* telemarkers
agree upon is that:
- a binding that could switch between tele mode and locked-heel (yet
fully releasable) mode would be kinda neato; yet,
- tele skiing on an AT binding is sorta possible but not terribly fun
and more importantly exposes the binding to high breakage risk.

(That said, when I'm on rolling terrain, I often straightline down
*very* short and *very* moderate inclines without bothering to lock
down the heel on my Diamirs, making sure though that I keep the heel
down - no elevator of course - so that the end of the central rail is
supported laterally by the sides of the lock down mechanism. Oh, and
about once a year I make a couple turns before realizing I forgot to
lock down the heel, most recently at the top of Rainier's Russell
Headwall on July 4th, whoops!)
  #20  
Old August 27th 04, 10:06 PM
Jonathan Shefftz
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Uli Hausmann wrote:

Although it might be interesting, i wouldn't trust that kind of tests.
In my experience all the ski related tests in german magazines i know
are kind of "guided" (by interests, relationships, dependency ...).


In general I agree about such suspicions. In the USA we have a
magazine called Consumer Reports (often sued by manufacturers who
don't like the results), which accepts no advertising, allows no
commercial use of its results, and buys all testing products from
regular stores. The contrast between its truly objective tests (which
alas do not include ski mountaineering gear) and those of specialized
sports publications is quite striking. (If only there was a
comparable Randonnee Reports magazine!)

That said, the spreadsheet I have purports to show the results of
quantitative lab tests, as opposed to qualitative skier judgements.
Then again, the test could have been designed to favor certain models,
and results from other tests that favored other models might not have
been reported...
 




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