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#31
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Rotation and Counter Rotation
"foot2foot" wrote in message ... (good stuff sniped) Have you ever investigated this move with any of your students as a help to move from wedge to parallel? If they understand home position, it can be very effective, and the lift eventually goes away on it's own. I'll make my kids hold their poles in front of them horizontally. This *forces* them to hold a decent body position, and the explanation of it's importance, and how it works are easy to get across to an eight year old or older. Great question. It's been a lot of years since I was a coach. However, I still remember the seemingly overwhelming obstacles regarding students perceptions of their own expectations and abilities. I guess our conversation would be best served by revealing my experiences with masters skiers. These are skiers who are pretty damn good, yet seem to be stuck in a plateau compared to where they aspire to be. Of course subjectivity is trumpet by objective clock times in a race course. If you subscribe to the theory that what gets you there fastest is bestest, then technical analysis will continue to be supreme. I don't always necessarily agree. However, skis are made to be carved, even if bumps are the main objective. In many instances, good vertical parallel skiers have to start all over. Vertical meaning they use too much vertical motion to initiate turns. I'm sure you would agree that superior steering is the cure to many ills, given that balance is satisfactory. My greatest tool was to personally demonstrate to grown-up wannabe racers the virtues of the non-breaking outside ski carving race wedge at slow speeds and gradually morphing it into a recognizable faster and acceptable "cool looking" ski technique. "Yes, if you continue to ski like a wide track retard, but carving, you will eventually improve,,,,,,for racing and otherwise". That's exactly how it happened for me as well as many of my skiing peers; and all you have to do is keep your hands forward. Back in 1985 I was head race coach at a small mountain by the name of Belleayre Mountain in N.Y. I had a seven year old skier who was an impeccable wide track pizza pie carver that stayed by my side all day for continuous demonstrations to juniors and masters alike. The basic stance teaches skiers to sit back but balance comparatively to the pressure on their skis and actually feel a good solid carve on their outside turning ski. A lot of youngsters do this naturally. My motto was "let the force of the kid carving skills come to you!" As far as the inside ski lift drill. Yes, I've done a lot of this in the past; including for myself. We must balance as if skiing on one outside ski. In my opinion, there is no better balancing drill. However, having too much pressure on the outside ski is an even bigger detriment considering newer ski technology. Two footed gradual balanced skiing from inside foot to outside foot skiing with careful and determined upper body discipline is what I advocate these days. Rick Swanger |
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#32
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Rotation and Counter Rotation
"Swanger" wrote in message Great question. It's been a lot of years since I was a coach. However, I still remember the seemingly overwhelming obstacles regarding students perceptions of their own expectations and abilities. I guess our conversation would be best served by revealing my experiences with masters skiers. These are skiers who are pretty damn good, yet seem to be stuck in a plateau compared to where they aspire to be. Of course subjectivity is trumpet by objective clock times in a race course. If you subscribe to the theory that what gets you there fastest is bestest, then technical analysis will continue to be supreme. I don't always necessarily agree. However, skis are made to be carved, even if bumps are the main objective. In many instances, good vertical parallel skiers have to start all over. Vertical meaning they use too much vertical motion to initiate turns. I'm sure you would agree that superior steering is the cure to many ills, given that balance is satisfactory. My greatest tool was to personally demonstrate to grown-up wannabe racers the virtues of the non-breaking outside ski carving race wedge at slow speeds and gradually morphing it into a recognizable faster and acceptable "cool looking" ski technique. So, the only means of speed control would be the shape of the turn, and the degree to which you carry the turn out of the fall line, or back up the hill? You're after a 100 percent railing ski? That's exactly how it happened for me as well as many of my skiing peers; and all you have to do is keep your hands forward. So, you would agree that the *number one* most basic element of the mechanics of skiing would be Home Position? The one that all others build upon, without which none of the others will work? Hands forward, slightly rounded shoulders, slightly bent at the waist, able to pick up the tail of a ski, and leave the tip on the snow. That's home position. Not that you always *are* picking up the tail of the inside ski, only that you *are able to*. That is, you are at least centered (fore and aft) on the skis, if not farther forward. You can't lift the tail of a ski and leave the tip on the snow from the back seat. Back in 1985 I was head race coach at a small mountain by the name of Belleayre Mountain in N.Y. I had a seven year old skier who was an impeccable wide track pizza pie carver that stayed by my side all day for continuous demonstrations to juniors and masters alike. The basic stance teaches skiers to sit back but balance comparatively to the pressure on their skis and actually feel a good solid carve on their outside turning ski. A lot of youngsters do this naturally. My motto was "let the force of the kid carving skills come to you!" As far as the inside ski lift drill. Yes, I've done a lot of this in the past; including for myself. We must balance as if skiing on one outside ski. In my opinion, there is no better balancing drill. However, having too much pressure on the outside ski is an even bigger detriment considering newer ski technology. Unless you've never, ever skied before, and you're an adult. Yes? Two footed gradual balanced skiing from inside foot to outside foot skiing with careful and determined upper body discipline is what I advocate these days. Unless you've never, ever skied before, and you're an adult? |
#33
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Rotation and Counter Rotation
"foot2foot" wrote in message ... "Swanger" wrote in message Great question. It's been a lot of years since I was a coach. However, I still remember the seemingly overwhelming obstacles regarding students perceptions of their own expectations and abilities. I guess our conversation would be best served by revealing my experiences with masters skiers. These are skiers who are pretty damn good, yet seem to be stuck in a plateau compared to where they aspire to be. Of course subjectivity is trumpet by objective clock times in a race course. If you subscribe to the theory that what gets you there fastest is bestest, then technical analysis will continue to be supreme. I don't always necessarily agree. However, skis are made to be carved, even if bumps are the main objective. In many instances, good vertical parallel skiers have to start all over. Vertical meaning they use too much vertical motion to initiate turns. I'm sure you would agree that superior steering is the cure to many ills, given that balance is satisfactory. My greatest tool was to personally demonstrate to grown-up wannabe racers the virtues of the non-breaking outside ski carving race wedge at slow speeds and gradually morphing it into a recognizable faster and acceptable "cool looking" ski technique. So, the only means of speed control would be the shape of the turn, and the degree to which you carry the turn out of the fall line, or back up the hill? You're after a 100 percent railing ski? Well now, you got me good right there. That's exactly where my analysis falls a little short. Yes, the most common means of speed control with the carving wedge would be the shape of the turn along with the tempo of linking the turns. I always cringe when it comes time for my carefully carving students to come to a stop or have to brake for whatever reason. The carving technique has to go right out the window. They use either a breaking wedge or, if their able to, slam their skis sideways. That's exactly how it happened for me as well as many of my skiing peers; and all you have to do is keep your hands forward. So, you would agree that the *number one* most basic element of the mechanics of skiing would be Home Position? The one that all others build upon, without which none of the others will work? Yes indeed. Back in 1985 I was head race coach at a small mountain by the name of Belleayre Mountain in N.Y. I had a seven year old skier who was an impeccable wide track pizza pie carver that stayed by my side all day for continuous demonstrations to juniors and masters alike. The basic stance teaches skiers to sit back but balance comparatively to the pressure on their skis and actually feel a good solid carve on their outside turning ski. A lot of youngsters do this naturally. My motto was "let the force of the kid carving skills come to you!" As far as the inside ski lift drill. Yes, I've done a lot of this in the past; including for myself. We must balance as if skiing on one outside ski. In my opinion, there is no better balancing drill. However, having too much pressure on the outside ski is an even bigger detriment considering newer ski technology. Unless you've never, ever skied before, and you're an adult. Yes? Yes,,,the value of exageration can't be denied. Especially for learning. Two footed gradual balanced skiing from inside foot to outside foot skiing with careful and determined upper body discipline is what I advocate these days. Unless you've never, ever skied before, and you're an adult? Very much depending on the individual, the two-footed wide track, slightly wedged stance can help an adult beginner since they want to be on two feet anyway. Once the confidence is gained at the breaking wedge level, I say keep them in that stance to get the feel of the outside ski making a carve. Sure, they may be standing too much on the inside ski. However, the faster and slightly steeper they go, the forces of gravity will naturally and gradually move them from inside to outside footing,,,and back. Thereby, learning transfer skills through down-weighting and not relying on overt vertical up-weighting (that takes more balance). This is a very gradual skill that a lot of aspiring racers have to relearn, especially if they've done "too much" one legged skiing or two footed parallel skidding and braking. Of course, with the wider wedged stance, balancing is important but not as overwhelmingly important as taking a novice beginner to parallel skiing. Parallel skiing, in my opinion is tougher to learn and teach. My hats off to the teachers who consistently pull it off. Rick Swanger |
#34
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Rotation and Counter Rotation
"Swanger" wrote in message om... "foot2foot" wrote in message ... So, the only means of speed control would be the shape of the turn, and the degree to which you carry the turn out of the fall line, or back up the hill? You're after a 100 percent railing ski? Well now, you got me good right there. That's exactly where my analysis falls a little short. Yes, the most common means of speed control with the carving wedge would be the shape of the turn along with the tempo of linking the turns. I always cringe when it comes time for my carefully carving students to come to a stop or have to brake for whatever reason. The carving technique has to go right out the window. They use either a braking wedge or, if their able to, slam their skis sideways. Can't you have them just carry the turn back up the hill to a stop? They're all advanced enough to handle that. So, you would agree that the *number one* most basic element of the mechanics of skiing would be Home Position? The one that all others build upon, without which none of the others will work? Yes indeed. Cool. I guess we've established that *nothing at all* will work without Home Position. This sort of goes without saying, but we said it. This would probably be the very first thing you would teach any new student and the first thing you would make sure any more advanced student has, and understands. Home position is *the most basic, essential* element on the list of the elements of the mechanics of skiing, in order from most basic, to more advanced and precise. What would be number two? The second element without which *none* of the others will work. The element that needs home position, but without which none of the others below it on the list will work? Which is number two? As far as the inside ski lift drill. Yes, I've done a lot of this in the past; including for myself. We must balance as if skiing on one outside ski. In my opinion, there is no better balancing drill. However, having too much pressure on the outside ski is an even bigger detriment considering newer ski technology. Unless you've never, ever skied before, and you're an adult. Yes? Yes,,,the value of exageration can't be denied. Especially for learning. Two footed gradual balanced skiing from inside foot to outside foot skiing with careful and determined upper body discipline is what I advocate these days. Unless you've never, ever skied before, and you're an adult? Very much depending on the individual, the two-footed wide track, slightly wedged stance can help an adult beginner since they want to be on two feet anyway. They do "want" to be on two feet, but once they see how easy it is to turn on one, they don't want two feet anymore. It takes forever to get them to learn to turn on two feet, and many quit, never coming back to the mountain. Learning the feel of 60/40, and to modulate the edging of both skis, each doing different things, takes much longer than simply initiating with the outside ski and picking up the inside ski by the tail. In addition, if you pick up the tail, you can not be in the back seat. Nothing prevents a student from being and staying in the back seat if a two footed wedge is taught at first and stuck with. In fact, starting and keeping a beginner in a two foot wedge for an extended time seems to encourage back seat skiing. Ultimately the student will need to learn to ski on one foot anyway, for use in certain situations. Why not start them out right away on only one? Why not let them discover what all and none is first (a very easy thing to do) and later move to more modulated distribution? I've never seen anyone that can have half of every class in a rough parallel that the students can take to the blues after two hours of instruction, when a two footed wedge alone is being taught. This is done all the time with different variations of the schrittbogen approach. Two hours, working parallel, able to learn skiing the blues. Have you ever *tried* teaching total newbies in this way? Once the confidence is gained at the braking wedge level, I say keep them in that stance to get the feel of the outside ski making a carve. Sure, they may be standing too much on the inside ski. However, the faster and slightly steeper they go, the forces of gravity will naturally and gradually move them from inside to outside footing,,,and back. But this will take forever, compared to a schrittbogen approach, with a beginner. Thereby, learning transfer skills through down-weighting and not relying on overt vertical up-weighting (that takes more balance). This is a very gradual skill that a lot of aspiring racers have to relearn, especially if they've done "too much" one legged skiing or two footed parallel skidding and braking. Of course, with the wider wedged stance, balancing is important but not as overwhelmingly important as taking a novice beginner to parallel skiing. They can learn this almost instantly. No one has told them they can't. The whole key is picking up the tail of the inside ski, leaving the tip on the snow. That, and Home Position. Parallel skiing, in my opinion is tougher to learn and teach. My hats off to the teachers who consistently pull it off. But, schrittbogen (basically, picking up the tail of a ski and leaving the tip on the snow) makes it *easy* for the wedge turner to move to matching skis. Once they have the idea of steering and matching of the inside ski, you can get them to move to more of a two footed technique. A beginner can learn parallel in two hours. And half of them out of every class do. This is because, a parallel turn is actually *half* a wedge turn. Take the wedge turn, cut it in half, you have a parallel turn, be it skidded or carved. You can cut the turn in half by taking all but the tip of the inside ski out of the picture. Be it mostly a one footed turn, it's still a parallel turn. Just ask Lito. |
#35
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Rotation and Counter Rotation
"foot2foot" wrote in message ... "Swanger" wrote in message om... "foot2foot" wrote in message ... So, the only means of speed control would be the shape of the turn, and the degree to which you carry the turn out of the fall line, or back up the hill? You're after a 100 percent railing ski? Well now, you got me good right there. That's exactly where my analysis falls a little short. Yes, the most common means of speed control with the carving wedge would be the shape of the turn along with the tempo of linking the turns. I always cringe when it comes time for my carefully carving students to come to a stop or have to brake for whatever reason. The carving technique has to go right out the window. They use either a braking wedge or, if their able to, slam their skis sideways. Can't you have them just carry the turn back up the hill to a stop? They're all advanced enough to handle that. So, you would agree that the *number one* most basic element of the mechanics of skiing would be Home Position? The one that all others build upon, without which none of the others will work? Yes indeed. Cool. I guess we've established that *nothing at all* will work without Home Position. This sort of goes without saying, but we said it. This would probably be the very first thing you would teach any new student and the first thing you would make sure any more advanced student has, and understands. Home position is *the most basic, essential* element on the list of the elements of the mechanics of skiing, in order from most basic, to more advanced and precise. What would be number two? The second element without which *none* of the others will work. The element that needs home position, but without which none of the others below it on the list will work? Which is number two? As far as the inside ski lift drill. Yes, I've done a lot of this in the past; including for myself. We must balance as if skiing on one outside ski. In my opinion, there is no better balancing drill. However, having too much pressure on the outside ski is an even bigger detriment considering newer ski technology. Unless you've never, ever skied before, and you're an adult. Yes? Yes,,,the value of exageration can't be denied. Especially for learning. Two footed gradual balanced skiing from inside foot to outside foot skiing with careful and determined upper body discipline is what I advocate these days. Unless you've never, ever skied before, and you're an adult? Very much depending on the individual, the two-footed wide track, slightly wedged stance can help an adult beginner since they want to be on two feet anyway. They do "want" to be on two feet, but once they see how easy it is to turn on one, they don't want two feet anymore. It takes forever to get them to learn to turn on two feet, and many quit, never coming back to the mountain. Learning the feel of 60/40, and to modulate the edging of both skis, each doing different things, takes much longer than simply initiating with the outside ski and picking up the inside ski by the tail. In addition, if you pick up the tail, you can not be in the back seat. Nothing prevents a student from being and staying in the back seat if a two footed wedge is taught at first and stuck with. In fact, starting and keeping a beginner in a two foot wedge for an extended time seems to encourage back seat skiing. Ultimately the student will need to learn to ski on one foot anyway, for use in certain situations. Why not start them out right away on only one? Why not let them discover what all and none is first (a very easy thing to do) and later move to more modulated distribution? I've never seen anyone that can have half of every class in a rough parallel that the students can take to the blues after two hours of instruction, when a two footed wedge alone is being taught. This is done all the time with different variations of the schrittbogen approach. Two hours, working parallel, able to learn skiing the blues. Have you ever *tried* teaching total newbies in this way? Once the confidence is gained at the braking wedge level, I say keep them in that stance to get the feel of the outside ski making a carve. Sure, they may be standing too much on the inside ski. However, the faster and slightly steeper they go, the forces of gravity will naturally and gradually move them from inside to outside footing,,,and back. But this will take forever, compared to a schrittbogen approach, with a beginner. Thereby, learning transfer skills through down-weighting and not relying on overt vertical up-weighting (that takes more balance). This is a very gradual skill that a lot of aspiring racers have to relearn, especially if they've done "too much" one legged skiing or two footed parallel skidding and braking. Of course, with the wider wedged stance, balancing is important but not as overwhelmingly important as taking a novice beginner to parallel skiing. They can learn this almost instantly. No one has told them they can't. The whole key is picking up the tail of the inside ski, leaving the tip on the snow. That, and Home Position. Parallel skiing, in my opinion is tougher to learn and teach. My hats off to the teachers who consistently pull it off. But, schrittbogen (basically, picking up the tail of a ski and leaving the tip on the snow) makes it *easy* for the wedge turner to move to matching skis. Once they have the idea of steering and matching of the inside ski, you can get them to move to more of a two footed technique. A beginner can learn parallel in two hours. And half of them out of every class do. This is because, a parallel turn is actually *half* a wedge turn. Take the wedge turn, cut it in half, you have a parallel turn, be it skidded or carved. You can cut the turn in half by taking all but the tip of the inside ski out of the picture. Be it mostly a one footed turn, it's still a parallel turn. Just ask Lito. I hear you Foot. Good stuff,,,all of it. I would guarantee that your beginner students would look better than mine. The sitting back you mentioned, in my opinion, is okay even for intermediates and experts as long as they have a good "home position" (it works well for the racers). The parallel points you speak of is dead on as well. I just prefer to focus more on the full arching carve of the turning ski with no emphasis on any vertical motion to initiate a turn; only down weighting. As far as what's number 2 on the list. Hmmmmm,,,,,,let me think about that one;-) Rick Swanger |
#36
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Rotation and Counter Rotation
On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 03:01:55 GMT, "Swanger"
wrote: As far as what's number 2 on the list. Hmmmmm,,,,,,let me think about that one;-) I know. Number 2 is how to quickly collect the rental equipment and get the boots back in the skis after a yard sale...because they got lost and forgot how to get back home! -Astro |
#37
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Rotation and Counter Rotation
"AstroPax" wrote in message ... On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 03:01:55 GMT, "Swanger" wrote: As far as what's number 2 on the list. Hmmmmm,,,,,,let me think about that one;-) I know. Number 2 is how to quickly collect the rental equipment and get the boots back in the skis after a yard sale...because they got lost and forgot how to get back home! Good try Pee Wee,,lol,,, but that's wrong! Number 2 would be closer to the number of eggs used in half a day in order to shingle half a dog house. |
#38
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Rotation and Counter Rotation
"foot2foot" wrote in message
"Swanger" Wrote in message So, you would agree that the *number one* most basic element of the mechanics of skiing would be Home Position? The one that all others build upon, without which none of the others will work? Yes indeed. What would be number two? The second element without which *none* of the others will work. The element that needs home position, but without which none of the others below it on the list will work? As far as what's number 2 on the list. Hmmmmm,,,,,,let me think about that one;-) Rick Swanger Actually I'm voting for crossover. I can't think of anything else more basic than that. So many people on the hill actually don't realize, that if you want to turn right, your body needs to be on the right side of the skis. Highly accomplished instructors can't seem to think of things that way, but it's the simplest truth about skiing. The reason I come back to it now and then is because I think it's really important for everyone that skis to realize this. If they don't they'll never know why they have trouble with their skiing, or why they fall. |
#39
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Rotation and Counter Rotation
foot2foot wrote:
Actually I'm voting for crossover. I can't think of anything else more basic than that. So many people on the hill actually don't realize, that if you want to turn right, your body needs to be on the right side of the skis. Highly accomplished instructors can't seem to think of things that way, but it's the simplest truth about skiing. The reason I come back to it now and then is because I think it's really important for everyone that skis to realize this. If they don't they'll never know why they have trouble with their skiing, or why they fall. That's an easy one - you just do a vector diagram on the blackboard and make some reasonable estimates as to the deformation modulus for the skis, add in side cut, and you can accurately calculate the cg-boot vector angle from vertical. Really. I'm serious. I was trying to teach a physicist friend to ski and getting nowhere. At lunch I did some vector diagrams on a napkin, and that afternoon without further ado he could turn. Just have to speak the student's language. Actually the PSIA knows this full well, but it doesn't include a broad enough definition of learning styles to cover this case. |
#40
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Rotation and Counter Rotation
lal_truckee writes:
foot2foot wrote: Actually I'm voting for crossover. I can't think of anything else more basic than that. So many people on the hill actually don't realize, that if you want to turn right, your body needs to be on the right side of the skis. Highly accomplished instructors can't seem to think of things that way, but it's the simplest truth about skiing. The reason I come back to it now and then is because I think it's really important for everyone that skis to realize this. If they don't they'll never know why they have trouble with their skiing, or why they fall. That's an easy one - you just do a vector diagram on the blackboard and make some reasonable estimates as to the deformation modulus for the skis, add in side cut, and you can accurately calculate the cg-boot vector angle from vertical. Really. I'm serious. I was trying to teach a physicist friend to ski and getting nowhere. At lunch I did some vector diagrams on a napkin, and that afternoon without further ado he could turn. Just have to speak the student's language. Actually the PSIA knows this full well, but it doesn't include a broad enough definition of learning styles to cover this case. Well, yeah, that's one learning style. IME, it's not the most common learning style that you encounter among people learning physical skills, but it's there. Intellectual/analytical explanations work great with these types of people, the lengthier the better. They don't work so well for a lot of people. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
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