Rotation and Counter Rotation

What about the teaching your students a set of basic skills:
Stance and balance: Advocate that having a good stance where the segments
of the body and all the joints are properly alignment so that the body
weight (centre of mass) is properly balanced over the feet (base of
support). Stance should be dynamic and changing all the time throughout the
entire turn depending on speed, turn shape, and terrain.
Timing and coordination: Doing the right things at the right time.
Pivoting: Turning comes from the lower body, ie. the feet and the legs.
Turning the skis without initiation of the turn coming from the upper body
nor the hips
Edging: Using the edges of the skis. At turn initiation the skis are flat
on the snow and progressively increasing the edge angle first by inclination
(first part of the arc) and second by angulation (second part of the arc)
Pressure control: Controlling the snow contact by extending or bending the
legs

Counter rotation is a result of a turn that happens from the lower body. As
a matter of opinion teaching and talking about counter rotation to the
average ski school student is more confusing to them rather than helpful. I
think that skiing teaching is a matter of showing the student a good
mountain experience first and then by developing good stance & balance and
timing & coordination without using technical terminology but rather by
teaching tactics.

Bottom line, skiing is a game and the final goal is to have fun! Wish for
'lots of snow'


"foot2foot" wrote in message
...
There was a bit of talk about rotation and counter
rotation in other threads so I thought I'd make a
synopsis in a new thread.

One of the basic elements of skiing that a *huge*
portion of the skiing population lack is counter rotation.
They rotate, but they don't counter rotate afterward. In
other words, they throw the outside shoulder around in
the direction of the turn to help turn the skis, continuing
this through the finish of the turn. They end the turn
with the outside shoulder moving uphill, and are out of
balance and position to start the new turn.

To explain, further:

Around the 1940's, the technique that was being taught
here in the US was the Arlberg technique. This is
what the 10th Mountain Division was taught, along
with most everyone else. The idea was, you rotate
your shoulders in the direction you want to go, then
the skis will follow. This was an exaggerated rotation,
to the point where the shoulders were parallel to the
skis at the start of a turn.

Some time later, the same Austrians who showed up
with the Arlberg technique years before, began
advocating a turning of the shoulders in the *opposite*
direction you want the skis to go in order to turn the skis.
Sort of like the sixties dance, the "twist". Shoulders go
one way, hips go the other. For every action, is an
opposite reaction.

Thus began a huge over-intellectualized debate in the
sixties about whether you should "rotate" or "counter
rotate". The Americans who had been rotating for
years like the Austrians told them, didn't want to
counter rotate like the Austrians were now (then)
telling them. It wasn't correct. Sound familiar?

Somewhere along the line, apparently without ever
realizing or codifying it, people began to do both.
That is, rotating and counter rotating as they skied.

After that, PSIA decided that they would call counter
rotation "counter". If you say counter rotation in an
exam you'll get docked. It's not correct. I'm not sure
what the correct PSIA term for rotation is, in fact I'm
not sure there is one. I think they/we might be calling
both rotation and counter rotation "counter". But to me,
*this* isn't correct. I hate that word correct, but it's
simply not what people do. You either rotate, or counter
rotate, or both. All skiers do either or both of these all
the time.

Rotation is turning your shoulders in the direction you
want the skis to go, counter rotation is turning the shoulders
in the *opposite* direction you want the skis to go. Either
will turn the skis in the direction you want to go.

"Quiet upper body, keep belly button toward lodge, keep
body facing down the hill, face the lift hut". All these
speak to rotation and counter rotation.

They are *actually* as follows:

If you are connected at the waist (the muscles are tight
so that there is no independent movement between
torso and hips), and you turn your shoulders in the way
you want the skis to go, the skis will turn that way. If you
are disconnected at the waist, (ab and back muscles loose)
and you turn your shoulders the *opposite* way you want
the skis to go, the skis will indeed, go that same way that
you want them to go.

You can turn your skis by turning your shoulders in the
direction you want the skis to go, or in the *opposite*
direction you want the skis to go. Rotation and counter
rotation.

Basically, what people do today is rotate (anticipate?)
through the first half of the turn and counter rotate
(counter?) through the second. Today the skis are turned
more through steering, skidding and the bending of the
ski than by the motion of the shoulders alone. Rotation
and counter rotation are used more for equilibrium of
the body in relation to the skis, than to actually turn
them by turning the shoulders.

But you still can if you want to. Turn your skis with
your shoulders that is. In all these years, the basic
mechanics of skiing haven't changed. They are all still
there for *you* to use any way that *you* want to.
Regardless of what you "should" do, or what is "correct".
All you need to do is understand the basic mechanics
of skiing.

Kneale Brownson wrote:

Remaining facing down a fall line is a long ways from
rotating the shoulders into that position.

Agreed.

And if you've left the
shoulders facing down the fall line, you hardly can "counter" it into
that position at the end of the turn. The differences are in the
amount of activity.

I think of "countered" as a position relative to the ski; A quiet upper
body with skis turning beneath automatically provides the "counter" as I
use the term - it's not an active additional rotation, although in some
occasions one might wish to augment the auto-counter with some
additional active edge set "counter."

Maybe we're talking about two different things using the same words?

"Gary" wrote in message

What about the teaching your students a set of basic skills:

I can't agree more.

Stance and balance: Advocate that having a good stance where the segments
of the body and all the joints are properly alignment so that the body
weight (centre of mass) is properly balanced over the feet (base of
support).

Number one on the list of the few basic elements of
the mechanics of skiing, or skills if you like. Tools.
Home Position. If you're in this position, you won't
fall. If you get in trouble, go home.


Stance should be dynamic and changing all the time throughout the
entire turn depending on speed, turn shape, and terrain.

How will the stance change?

Timing and coordination: Doing the right things at the right time.

An interesting list item. I'm not sure where to put it or
how to express it to the student. And it seems like it
might include a lot of different things. But indeed, any
turn requires it's steps in a progression, at the right time.

Pivoting: Turning comes from the lower body, ie. the feet and the legs.
Turning the skis without initiation of the turn coming from the upper body
nor the hips

Without *rotation* of the shoulders or hips? I think U.S.
people would call this Steering, as would I. Turning the leg
from the hip socket joint. Rotation of the whole leg, not
just twisting the foot (which comes from the two lower
leg bones).

I would think that movement of the hips and upper body
down the hill toward the center of the turn would be an
important thing. But this could be called initiation with the
upper body. To me, *this* motion of the body is Crossover.

Edging: Using the edges of the skis. At turn initiation the skis are
flat
on the snow and progressively increasing the edge angle first by
inclination
(first part of the arc) and second by angulation (second part of the arc)

I would just call all of it angulation, but I would put it very
high on the list. One of the most basic items. Bringing the
ski up on a sharper or shallower angle to the snow, as you
wish, with two or three means of doing it.


Pressure control: Controlling the snow contact by extending or bending
the
legs

To me, this term (pressure) is too general to be useful.
There are too many ways to get pressure. Flexion and
extension truly are part of it, but speed and turn shape
also figure in, as well as angulation. It's a useful concept,
but I don't think it's a basic skill or element, it's a
combination of others. It's a result of the use of other
tools.

Counter rotation is a result of a turn that happens from the lower body.
As
a matter of opinion teaching and talking about counter rotation to the
average ski school student is more confusing to them rather than helpful.

What would you try with a student who throws the
outside shoulder around, to try to help the turn?

I think that skiing teaching is a matter of showing the student a good
mountain experience first and then by developing good stance & balance and
timing & coordination without using technical terminology but rather by
teaching tactics.

Bottom line, skiing is a game and the final goal is to have fun! Wish for
'lots of snow'


The idea is to simplify. Break skiing down into the
simplest of components and the simplest of terms
and concepts. This sounds like exactly what you're
after.

Present the student with these few most basic things
first, and a rudimentary turn that will work on the
blues. Then get more precise as the student improves.

Besides that,

Here's where we might diverge in ideas. To me, the
student "having fun", simply isn't enough. You must
get the student skiing, and you have to do it fast.

Unless you have him/her captive (they have bought
a three or four lesson package) if they don't actually
learn to ski, they well might just give up the sport.
Even though they had fun.

Thanks for the reply! It's good to speak with you.

"Kneale Brownson" wrote in message

If your turn initiation involves skidding the tails (which I suspect
is part of your problem with passing level II),

Nah. Not unless I want to. There are other things
missing. I can rail. I just don't look the way they want me
to, it's a bit too much like ski ballet. As well as that, some
of those tasks I actually can't do all that well. Like the one
ski stuff. I'll admit that. But that's another subject.

Tell ya one thing though. I'll kick the crap out of any
level II when it comes to teaching beginners. Same for
the examiner that gave it to 'em. My beginners will
*shred* the typical PSIA steered wedge beginners.
And do.

then you NEED the
anticipated upper body of days of yore, Foot. If, however, you
initiate turns by rolling onto the new set of edges and allowing your
center of mass to move forward and inside the turn radius, you don't
need the upper body's help in getting the turn going.

I would call this crossover, but, what happened to the
"strong inside half"? Is that out the window these days?

If you're "holding" the upper body square with the fall line, it's not
a relaxed quiet upper body. Again, you need to distinguish between
carved turns and those that are shorter than the built-in turn of the
pair of skis you're riding, given the snow conditions and the forces
generated by speed and your weight.

Could you describe the desired opposite of "holding"?

The five skills I listed are what is used by the CSIA (Canadian ski
instructors' alliance) and CSCF (Canadian ski coaches federation).


"foot2foot" wrote in message
...

"Gary" wrote in message

What about the teaching your students a set of basic skills:

I can't agree more.

Stance and balance: Advocate that having a good stance where the
segments
of the body and all the joints are properly alignment so that the body
weight (centre of mass) is properly balanced over the feet (base of
support).

Number one on the list of the few basic elements of
the mechanics of skiing, or skills if you like. Tools.
Home Position. If you're in this position, you won't
fall. If you get in trouble, go home.


Stance should be dynamic and changing all the time throughout the
entire turn depending on speed, turn shape, and terrain.

How will the stance change?

Think about the four planes of balance (fore-aft, lateral, vertical,
rotational). I like to think of skiing as a CONTINUOUS series of
micro-adjustments to maintain my balance. In short, I must keep moving the
segments of my body to always be centered over my feet and that includes
keeping the feet mobile.



Timing and coordination: Doing the right things at the right time.

An interesting list item. I'm not sure where to put it or
how to express it to the student. And it seems like it
might include a lot of different things. But indeed, any
turn requires it's steps in a progression, at the right time.

Pivoting: Turning comes from the lower body, ie. the feet and the legs.
Turning the skis without initiation of the turn coming from the upper
body
nor the hips

Without *rotation* of the shoulders or hips? I think U.S.
people would call this Steering, as would I. Turning the leg
from the hip socket joint. Rotation of the whole leg, not
just twisting the foot (which comes from the two lower
leg bones).

"Steering" in Canadian skiing teach or coach is talked about as a
combination of pivot and edging.


I would think that movement of the hips and upper body
down the hill toward the center of the turn would be an
important thing. But this could be called initiation with the
upper body. To me, *this* motion of the body is Crossover.

Edging: Using the edges of the skis. At turn initiation the skis are
flat
on the snow and progressively increasing the edge angle first by
inclination
(first part of the arc) and second by angulation (second part of the
arc)

I would just call all of it angulation, but I would put it very
high on the list. One of the most basic items. Bringing the
ski up on a sharper or shallower angle to the snow, as you
wish, with two or three means of doing it.

It is pretty difficult to angulate at the beginning of the turn. Think
about the turn in 3 phases. Phase 1 release the edges of the turn that you
are finishing to begin the skis flat on the snow and re-align the body
(cross-over). Phase 2 begin to extend the legs and get edge grip, body
inclines inside the turn. Phase 3 increase edge angle by rolling ankles and
angulation using ankles, knees, hips in that order. (build skier from
bottom up)



Pressure control: Controlling the snow contact by extending or bending
the
legs

To me, this term (pressure) is too general to be useful.
There are too many ways to get pressure. Flexion and
extension truly are part of it, but speed and turn shape
also figure in, as well as angulation. It's a useful concept,
but I don't think it's a basic skill or element, it's a
combination of others. It's a result of the use of other
tools.

Counter rotation is a result of a turn that happens from the lower body.
As
a matter of opinion teaching and talking about counter rotation to the
average ski school student is more confusing to them rather than
helpful.

What would you try with a student who throws the
outside shoulder around, to try to help the turn?

- Both hands on the down hill knee
- Hold the poles horizontally like handlebar on a bike and tell student to
hold poles parallel to the down hill ski
- Put the uphill hand on the downhill knee during the second part of the
turn


I think that skiing teaching is a matter of showing the student a good
mountain experience first and then by developing good stance & balance
and
timing & coordination without using technical terminology but rather by
teaching tactics.

Bottom line, skiing is a game and the final goal is to have fun! Wish
for
'lots of snow'


The idea is to simplify. Break skiing down into the
simplest of components and the simplest of terms
and concepts. This sounds like exactly what you're
after.

Present the student with these few most basic things
first, and a rudimentary turn that will work on the
blues. Then get more precise as the student improves.

Besides that,

Here's where we might diverge in ideas. To me, the
student "having fun", simply isn't enough. You must
get the student skiing, and you have to do it fast.

Agreed, fun doesn't necessary translate into the student learning but make
the learning environment better. Depending on the student's skiing
experience for me determines how much I need to simiplify the task. I think
that ski teaching is to know the student's goal and see if this is a
reasonable goal that is attainable. If yes, then the lesson or series of
lessons is broken down into a set of mini-goals and task to achieve the
student ultimate goal.


Unless you have him/her captive (they have bought
a three or four lesson package) if they don't actually
learn to ski, they well might just give up the sport.
Even though they had fun.

Thanks for the reply! It's good to speak with you.

you might want to have a look at the canadian ski pro's web site at
www.snowpro.com

"foot2foot" wrote in message ...

I introduce students to a bit of counter rotation at the
end of a turn in the fourth to sixth hour of their
skiing lives. It helps them to wind up a turn to a stop,
instead of continuing on up the hill, and ending up sking
backward down the hill.

So after the counter and attendant tail skid, do you add an edge set
too?

You're teaching defensive skiing from about the mid-1970's, Foot.

The goal of turns generally should be to take you "over there", not to
stop you from going somewhere. If you always have to use turns to
apply the brakes, you should be skiing on more gentle terrain or learn
how to pick a slow line down a steeper slope.

lal_truckee wrote in message ...
Kneale Brownson wrote:

Remaining facing down a fall line is a long ways from
rotating the shoulders into that position.

Agreed.

And if you've left the
shoulders facing down the fall line, you hardly can "counter" it into
that position at the end of the turn. The differences are in the
amount of activity.

I think of "countered" as a position relative to the ski; A quiet upper
body with skis turning beneath automatically provides the "counter" as I
use the term - it's not an active additional rotation, although in some
occasions one might wish to augment the auto-counter with some
additional active edge set "counter."

Maybe we're talking about two different things using the same words?

It's Foot's contention that the countered position is an activity (a
verb), not mine. I personally avoid using such terminology,
especially in lessons.

"foot2foot" wrote in message
...
I introduce students to a bit of counter rotation at the
end of a turn in the fourth to sixth hour of their
skiing lives. It helps them to wind up a turn to a stop,
instead of continuing on up the hill, and ending up sking
backward down the hill.

Some very insightful replies Foot. We are pretty much on the same page.
However, I've always enjoyed coaching beginner junior racers, simply because
I could easily convince them that parallel sking and its complexities of
weight transfer and edging along with skillful rotation could be temporarily
avoided and better obtained with a wider gliding wedge like position with
the single focus on carving the outside edge, even with the weight on the
inside ski. It's ugly and doesn't resemble a prettier parallel turn at
all. Of course eventually parallel skills will have to be learned.
Meanwhile, their upper bodies can contort almost endlessly sense their
inside foot will provide enough stability. I've seen my share of juniors
easily adapt their skills to parallel turns after spending lots of time in
a wide skiing pizza pie carving stance (not a breaking wedge). I think
PSIA tries to teach the intricacies of parallel too early, especially given
the state of present ski technology. Of course you have to give them what
they want. That goes for PSIA and students alike.

Rick Swanger

"foot2foot" wrote in message ...
"Kneale Brownson" wrote in message

If your turn initiation involves skidding the tails (which I suspect
is part of your problem with passing level II),

Nah. Not unless I want to. There are other things
missing. I can rail. I just don't look the way they want me
to, it's a bit too much like ski ballet. As well as that, some
of those tasks I actually can't do all that well. Like the one
ski stuff. I'll admit that. But that's another subject.

Tell ya one thing though. I'll kick the crap out of any
level II when it comes to teaching beginners. Same for
the examiner that gave it to 'em. My beginners will
*shred* the typical PSIA steered wedge beginners.
And do.

then you NEED the
anticipated upper body of days of yore, Foot. If, however, you
initiate turns by rolling onto the new set of edges and allowing your
center of mass to move forward and inside the turn radius, you don't
need the upper body's help in getting the turn going.

I would call this crossover, but, what happened to the
"strong inside half"? Is that out the window these days?

I guess crossover would be an appropriate description. "Strong inside
half" is possibly more properly called an active inside half. I think
there's been some decline in its emphasis. Too many skiers end up
translating "strong" into pushed ahead, which usually results in the
inside ski getting too much lead. That puts you on your heel at the
start of the next turn, which is not a good thing.

If you're "holding" the upper body square with the fall line, it's not
a relaxed quiet upper body. Again, you need to distinguish between
carved turns and those that are shorter than the built-in turn of the
pair of skis you're riding, given the snow conditions and the forces
generated by speed and your weight.

Could you describe the desired opposite of "holding"?

To me, holding implies a tensing of muscles. Relaxed but alert
muscles can flow more smoothly. It's all about ALLOWING the entire
system to move smoothly.

"Swanger"
wrote in message

Some very insightful replies Foot. We are pretty much on the same page.
However, I've always enjoyed coaching beginner junior racers, simply
because
I could easily convince them that parallel sking and its complexities of
weight transfer and edging along with skillful rotation could be
temporarily
avoided and better obtained with a wider gliding wedge like position with
the single focus on carving the outside edge, even with the weight on the
inside ski. It's ugly and doesn't resemble a prettier parallel turn at
all. Of course eventually parallel skills will have to be learned.
Meanwhile, their upper bodies can contort almost endlessly sense their
inside foot will provide enough stability. I've seen my share of juniors
easily adapt their skills to parallel turns after spending lots of time
in
a wide skiing pizza pie carving stance (not a breaking wedge). I think
PSIA tries to teach the intricacies of parallel too early, especially
given
the state of present ski technology. Of course you have to give them what
they want. That goes for PSIA and students alike.

Rick Swanger

I would say that PSIA gets tied up in *intricacy* too
early. An ugly parallel turn that works just fine is as
good as a pretty one for most purposes. And it can
always be improved.

I agree completely about a flattened inside ski with a
pseudo wedge to learn about carving with the outside
ski. This of course, after the skier *is* capable with
the wedge, and perhaps even owns a parallel turn,
though a skidder. This is how the European instructors
will teach "European Carving" to accomplished skiers.

This is sort of what the PSIA wedge is all about, but
the PSIA wedge is advocated for beginners, and there
seems to be an emphasis on perfecting the wedge before
moving on to matching skis. It's clearly a two footed
wedge.

I find that with adult beginners though, they become
skiers more quickly if you spend about ten seconds
on the wedge, and move to a one footed, outside
ski parallel.

The best way to move them right into parallel is to
get them to use Home Position, and the Harb move,
schrittbogen, however you call it, lift the tail of the
inside ski and leave the tip on the snow. At this point
the move is PSIA approved as an intermediate to
advanced *aid* to improving parallel skiing. I use
it right out of the box as a major tool.

Have you ever investigated this move with any of
your students as a help to move from wedge to
parallel? If they understand home position, it can be
very effective, and the lift eventually goes away on
it's own. I'll make my kids hold their poles in front
of them horizontally. This *forces* them to hold
a decent body position, and the explanation of
it's importance, and how it works are easy to get
across to an eight year old or older.

As far as what "they" want, what you *really* need to
do is give the *general manager* what *he* wants. He
wants new skiers to be up and skiing the blues in
two to four hours. This is very possible.

Indeed, what the *student* wants is to learn to ski
capably as quickly as possible. They're not interested
in perfection. Nobody else ever asks them that.
I do, and that's what they say.

As far as children go though, this is a whole different
game. They'll be wedging for a while, no question.
But Home Position really helps, and schrittbogen
does as well.